Pope Benedict XVI hasn't scraped Limbo

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For the time being—it seems—the Church has not officially scraped Limbo.

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100600383.html

Pope keeps limbo in limbo, for now

By Philip Pullella
Reuters
Friday, October 6, 2006; 9:43 AM

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict has decided to keep limbo in limbo a little longer…

For nearly a year the Church’s International Theological Commission has been working on a document expected to recommend he formally abolish limbo, the place where centuries of Catholic tradition held that babies who die without baptism went…

The Pope said a mass with members of the commission on Friday morning, but, contrary to some media speculation, he did not mention the concept in his homily and announced no decision…
 
I’ll say it again: the most the commission, or the Pope, can do is to discourage the idea that babies go to limbo and perhaps encourage “very good hope” that God uses extraordinary means of grace before the moment of death to bring them to heaven.

But the Church has explicitly said that she DOESNT KNOW what happens to them. So limbo will always remain a valid (even if discouraged and unpopular) theory.

Extraordinary means are not a subject of Public Revelation. God probably does save them all extraordinarily. But this can never be the object of dogma because the Church has explicitly said that this was not Revealed. And, well, of course it wasn’t revealed! By the very nature of the term “extraordinary” (if it was revealed…it would be ordinary…and so we could presume it. But we cannot presume it. We can have good hope, but we are still obligated to baptize urgently based on that which God has revealed)

We can have good hope in heaven for them, based on God’s mercy. But ultimately, their fate is NOT a subject of public revelation.
 
I am including this here—since it seems our Pope is sending a message to those that want to expand beyond revealed Truth.

zenit.org/english/

Code: ZE06100607

Date: 2006-10-06

Pope Warns Theologians to Not Seek Applause

In Homily, He Recommends Fidelity to Truth

VATICAN CITY, OCT. 6, 2006 (Zenit.org).- A theologian prostitutes himself when he subjects himself to the “dictatorship of common opinions,” Benedict XVI told members of the International Theological Commission.

The Pope delivered that message today in a homily during a Mass he celebrated in the Redemptoris Mater Chapel of the Vatican Apostolic Palace for some 30 theologians of the commission.

“To speak to meet with applause, to speak oriented to what men want to hear, to speak obeying the dictatorship of common opinions, is considered a sort of prostitution of the word and of the soul,” said the Holy Father quoting the First Letter of St. Peter.

The theologian needs a form of “chastity,” which implies “not to be subjected to such standards, not to seek applause, but to seek obedience to the truth,” the Pontiff said.

Benedict XVI continued: “And I believe this is the fundamental virtue of the theologian, this discipline, even hard, of obedience to the truth, which makes us collaborators of the truth, a mouth of truth, so that we will not speak in this river of words of today, but that we are really purified and chaste through obedience to the truth, so that truth may speak in us.” …
 
Is Limbo the same place as Purgatory? If not then please explain them both to me. God speed.
 
Limbo Patris (please excuse my poor Latin) is the Limbo of the Fathers, where people went who were going to heaven, before Christ had come. Jesus decended to the dead to preach to those in prision. (1 Pet 3:19) As I recall most protestants believe it too, but shy away from using the word “Limbo.” There is no debate over this.

Limbo of the infants (I’m not even going to try the latin) is a theological theory to try to figure out the issue where do unbaptized infants go when they die. Jesus tells us we must be baptized, (“born again of water and spirit”) to enter heaven. But at the same time too God is all merciful and surely he wouldn’t send these infants to hell because they have never chosen sin. Since what happens to infants is not part of divine revelation (that I’m aware of) I don’t know if the church can ever make a definitive statement on where those souls go. Limbo of the infants was a theological attempt to try to figure out where these souls go.

Since limbo patris is kind of relegated to the old covenant, you don’t hear much about it, and the word limbo is used more often to describe the theory and place in that theory with unbaptized infants.

newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
 
If one believes that
  • a fertilized egg (zygote) is a human being
  • and the soul immediately enters the zygote at conception
and if
  • the zygote fails to be implanted in the uterus (which occurs naturally 40% to 60% of the time)
  • or it fails to remain implanted (which occurs naturally upto 25% of the time)
then how can one believe that a “just God” sends these souls to a “state” that is less than perfect? These souls could never have the chance to be baptized.

Jesus proclaimed “Let the little children come unto me; do not stop them; for it is to these that the kingdom of God belongs.’’ (Mark 10:14).

I believe His statement is true “the kingdom of God belongs to children”. There is no need for Limbo. All young souls go to heaven.

Go with Love, Go with God!
 
DarkNight said:
If one believes that
  • a fertilized egg (zygote) is a human being
  • and the soul immediately enters the zygote at conception
and if
  • the zygote fails to be implanted in the uterus (which occurs naturally 40% to 60% of the time)
  • or it fails to remain implanted (which occurs naturally upto 25% of the time)
then how can one believe that a “just God” sends these souls to a “state” that is less than perfect? These souls could never have the chance to be baptized.

Jesus proclaimed “Let the little children come unto me; do not stop them; for it is to these that the kingdom of God belongs.’’ (Mark 10:14).

I believe His statement is true “the kingdom of God belongs to children”. There is no need for Limbo. All young souls go to heaven.

Go with Love, Go with God!
Click to expand...
Isn’t that why the Church from the beginning baptized infants. So that they would be His.

Did God not say that baptism is necessary.

We in truth–do not know what happens with the unbaptised- and we do indeed entrust them to the mercy of our Lord.

What we cannot do is be presumptuous enough to tell our Lord what to do with these infant souls.
 
The difference between Limbo and Purgatory is that Limbo is thought to be a place and state of Perfect Natural Happiness, devoid of any punishment, just not part of Heaven itself.

Purgatory is where the redeemed go to be purged of any remaining attachments to sins, etc., and involves remedial punishments.

Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
The difference between Limbo and Purgatory is that Limbo is thought to be a place and state of Perfect Natural Happiness, devoid of any punishment, just not part of Heaven itself.

Purgatory is where the redeemed go to be purged of any remaining attachments to sins, etc., and involves remedial punishments.

Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
Click to expand...
Thank you. Yes, I have looked more into this Limbo thing and really have no reason not to believe it. Limbo may not be explicitly stated in the Bible, but it does have Biblical support. Some people I hear say that Limbo is cruel, but how can something happy be cruel? Jesus said that in order for someone to enter Heaven that they must be born of water and the Holy Spirit. Then people respond by saying that Jesus said as well “Let the childeren come to me”. Note Jesus said “LET”. This obviously means that he was asking people to allow the childeren to come to him, but it was up to them. Besides who says Jesus doesn’t pay a visit to Limbo to see the kids every once in a while. Maybe, maybe not. I am glad that I have heard of this Limbo. It explains a lot to me. God speed.
 
I dont really like the idea.

I mean, I can see a certain poignance there…in accepting what God gave you and at the end of time saying “O, glorious God, what he did was wise. It’s better than hell, and I can still worship God naturally. It was all for the best!”

But I dont really like the idea…because why not give them the grace extraordinarily at the moment before death if they were innocents?

Still…I DONT believe it is a subject of public revelation. So one can “hope” that God will save them, or “speculate” limbo…but in the end…one cannot “believe” either with the certainty of faith…nor can the Church make a dogmatic declaration…simply because revelation only reveals Ordinary means, by the very nature and definition of what is “ordinary” (if such means were explicitly revealed, they would not be “extraordinary” and we could presume them…but we can’t, since they’re not revealed)
 
To Vigis (post #9) - the full verse is ‘People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.’ Mark 10:13-16

It was His own disciples who were keeping the children from Jesus - not the parents.

My question (post #6) refers to souls who, by natural causes, are never born. Fertilized eggs that never implant or do not remain implanted. These souls could never be baptized. At this stage, a woman doesn’t even know conception has occurred

Jesus spoke of heaven and hell.
He did not speak of any levels in between that I know of (please correct me if I’m wrong).
That doesn’t mean there aren’t any.
It does mean we do not know, much less do we know what they are like.

Why are we so bent on describing things we have absolutely no knowledge of?
Why can’t we admit we do not know?

Personally, I much rather admit that I don’t know what happens after I die than to paint a pretty (or painful) picture. And even less to attempt to have some belief in these pictures.
I do know that if I do the right thing at this moment, God will “shine a light” on the right thing for me to do in the next moment.

Go with Love, Go with God!
 
DarkNight said:
If one believes that
  • a fertilized egg (zygote) is a human being
  • and the soul immediately enters the zygote at conception
and if
  • the zygote fails to be implanted in the uterus (which occurs naturally 40% to 60% of the time)
  • or it fails to remain implanted (which occurs naturally upto 25% of the time)
then how can one believe that a “just God” sends these souls to a “state” that is less than perfect? These souls could never have the chance to be baptized.

Jesus proclaimed “Let the little children come unto me; do not stop them; for it is to these that the kingdom of God belongs.’’ (Mark 10:14).

I believe His statement is true “the kingdom of God belongs to children”. There is no need for Limbo. All young souls go to heaven.

Go with Love, Go with God!
Click to expand...
DarkNight,

While I, too, want to believe that all children (and for that matter, all adults, believer or not) are in heaven, we cannot get into wishful thinking here when the Lord said that he or she who is not born again of water and Spirit cannot enter the kingdom of God. We must have faith and trust in the mercy of the Lord.
 
In John 3:1-15 - Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

Jesus was responding to a question regarding people who have “grown old”.

In Mark 10:13-16 - “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Jesus is referring to people who have not yet grown old.

Why insist that the first statement is true and the second statement is, somehow, “less true”?

(And what about those souls that were never physically born because the fertilized egg never implanted?)

I have learned not to waste time on wishful thinking.
I have learned that doing the right thing today brings me to the right place tomorrow.

Go with love, Go with God!
 
DarkNight said:
In John 3:1-15 - Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

Jesus was responding to a question regarding people who have “grown old”.

In Mark 10:13-16 - “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Jesus is referring to people who have not yet grown old.

Why insist that the first statement is true and the second statement is, somehow, “less true”?

(And what about those souls that were never physically born because the fertilized egg never implanted?)

I have learned not to waste time on wishful thinking.
I have learned that doing the right thing today brings me to the right place tomorrow.

Go with love, Go with God!
Click to expand...
Oh dear----now “no one” means the old.----What about 8, 15, 20, 30, 45 yrs. No one—means that—no one. That is why the Church from its very beginning----baptised infants.

We do not know what happens to the pre-born or children who die without baptism. God did not reveal that to us. We should not be presumptous as to impose on Him —what we want Him to do.

We can hope and pray, entrust them to His mercy—but we cannot force Him to abide by what we want.
 
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