Pope Election = Infallible

[toaslan]

The word “lots,” κλήρους klerous, is not used to express votes. Casting lots was common among the Jews on important and difficult occasions.
Look into what was involved when casting lots…They used stones or pieces of wood and would then pray or even offer sacrifices before drawing the lots from an urn. There could be four or five people recieving votes when considering who will be the pope, that doesn’t sound like being led by the Holy Spirit to me.

Casting lots and casting votes can be considered as doing the same thing. The virtue is not in the stones/chips/papers themselves. The virtue is in the souls of those casting the stones/chips/papers. When those doing the casting are mindfully and prayerfully providing a way through which the Holy Spirit can make known His will, then the outcome can be Spirit-led.

(You know that everything done in a papal election is first, last and throughout, heavy-duty prayed into the hands of the Holy Spirit; that regarding just the mechanics, the cardinals use bits of paper to write on, and that they each put their bit of paper into a receptacle; and that when all the papers are together, they are then taken out and sorted into piles…)

Sometimes in papal election history there *have *been only two candidates. Sometimes there have been more than two. It’s just not important. It always narrows down to one, just as it did for Matthi’as.

You don’t have to acknowledge the similarity; but it is there.

The Holy Spirit wouldn’t lead some in one direction and others in another direction.

Amen, brother–you never said anything truer. And in a papal election, we seem to come out in one direction–with one pope. Catholics say what you just said when we look at the thousands of Protestant sects divided over doctrine (due to their lack of one pope with authority over all).

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi CM
This Scripture proves nothing on your account. Verse 26 acually proves my point, 26: And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi’as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

It says that the lot fell on Matthi’as, not that some fell Justus, but more of them fell on Matthi’as.
The word “lots,” κλήρους klerous, is not used to express votes. Casting lots was common among the Jews on important and difficult occasions.
Look into what was involved when casting lots and this will help you. They used stones or pieces of wood and would then pray or even offer sacrifices before drawing the lots from an urn. There could be four or five people recieving votes when considering who will be the pope, that doesn’t sound like being led by the Holy Spirit to me. The Holy Spirit wouldn’t lead some in one direction and others in another direction.

Actually you’re wrong in that your assertion that it would have been unanimous if from the Holy Spirit, yet the fact that there were two choices put forward shows that that is not the case.

By your reasoning, this was not of the Holy Spirit because more than one choice was put forward.

The selection of the Holy Spirit is not relevant to the number of choices put forward. That’s fallacious reasoning. Look at the selection of David to be king of Israel…

 

[Church_Militant]

This is a rather interesting objection coming from a non-Catholic.

I’ve often asked how one could know which of the contradictory non-Catholic theological positions is correct. I mean, how could there possibly be more than one denomination (and one interpretation) if they’re all led by the same Holy Spirit?

You seem to be deliberately missing the point. As I understand it, the Catholic Church holds that the Holy Spirit ensures the proper outcome of the process, but not necessarily each and every individual vote cast in that process. It seems like a simple enough distinction to me, anyways.

A very good point…or else there wouldn’t be any “Non Denoms”. (or denoms)

 

[guanophore]

There could be four or five people recieving votes when considering who will be the pope, that doesn’t sound like being led by the Holy Spirit to me. The Holy Spirit wouldn’t lead some in one direction and others in another direction.

actually, this is a very good peice of evidence that no one of us can fully discern the will of the HS. when there is unity, there is a better chance that our personal biases will not interfere with discernment. This is what if found in the Magesterium of the Catholic Church.