Pope Francis: better for families to be tired, struggling than isolated, seeking luxury [CWN]

[Xantippe]

F**rom my understanding, the military lifestyle brings together many people who move a lot and who may be in “need” of local friends. **It’s not always quite so easy to move someplace and make close friends in other circumstances, such as if most of the people around you has known each other for their entire lives and already have busy lives filled with friends and family.

Nor is it easy when dear friends move away. Xantippe mentioned that a close friend had moved recently. I remember years ago that a dear friend of mine broke down in tears when I told her we were moving. :crying: The people who move generally understand that they’ll need to be ready to make new friends, but the friends who remain behind might find those friends who moved away difficult to replace. The book of Sirach says “A faithful friends is a sturdy shelter. He who finds one, finds a treasure.” Some friendships are treasures that simply cannot be replaced. I’m still good friends with the friend I moved away from years ago, but talking with her on the phone is not the same as being there.

I really like people, but I’m on the shy side too. I know what you mean about having fewer friends but stronger friendships. But I don’t know exactly what Pope Francis means by what he said in the first article linked. Isolated and seeking luxury??? I don’t get it. I don’t know what he means. But I’m glad it makes Pope Francis happy to see us when we’re tired. I guess I bring that man a great deal more joy than I thought I did.

1. That’s right about the number of transient people being important. One hears a lot of stories about how terrible it is to move to a small town where everybody filled their friend quota when they were in 5th grade, are busy with extended family stuff, and just doesn’t have any room in their life for new people. And there seem to be parts of the country where it’s very difficult to break in (parts of the Midwest, I keep hearing).

Our area is reasonably newcomer-friendly. The cultural stuff can be a little difficult to master–for instance that local women would rather die than not be “nice” so it takes a while to figure out if they actually like you or not.

1. I had something like two social things a week, every week, when I had two good friends locally. Then one moved and a huge vacuum opened up, just as we were entering an awkward and less portable toddler stage. And my other friend talks about them relocating–but they’re buying a new house now (in my neighborhood!!!), so hopefully that’s another 2-3 years of them not leaving.
2. Those last two lines were HILARIOUS.

 

[Xantippe]

I took Pope Francis as talking about the Church as a family. We can’t split ourselves into separate groups, isolating us from each other. We must come together as a whole family, non-Catholics as well. It’s easier to deal with just those that we agree with (the luxury part) but we isolate ourselves from each other when we do so…

At least, that’s what I got out of it.

I can’t say I’m a big fan of Papa’s oratory skills, but his love and care for us can’t be beat!

Xiantippe, my prayers for you today. Loneliness is tough, but my best friends have been found through adoration. :grouphug:

Thank you!

 

[Xantippe]

Here is Vatican Radios report and transcript of the day in which Pope Francis talked about isolationism as a bad model of society.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/02/15/pope_francis_meets_with_mexican_families/1208919

He had first listened to testimonies given by various people demonstrating outreach Catholic style. He then referred to some of those testaments in his speech to show the opposite of the isolationist model.

I hope it seems more clear to people through this article. He is talking about a type of attitude when he says ‘isolationism’. One that excludes helping others and excludes outreach within your community. Just being concerned with your own advancement and not identifying as part of a whole community.

That’s quite possible to do with children. See, for example the famous “Tiger Mom.” I believe that competitive style is quite common in the NE (for instance NY and NJ).

I’m not a Tiger Mom myself exactly, but I’m definitely a little stripy, and it’s a tendency I need to curb.

 

[1990Domer]

I think it would be really revolting to pay $400 a month and then discover that it wasn’t covering what you thought it was going to cover or anything really bad (which is the point of insurance to begin with–cushioning against major events).

I think it is actually relevant. There’s a temptation (when people do stuff we don’t agree with) to assume that they have no reason for it, but when enough people are doing the same thing, I think at some point, you have to stop and look a bit and figure out, why do people do stuff a certain way?

In the case of the main discussion, the question is, why do people marry late, have kids late, and prefer to have small families? I think it’s worthwhile to look at the realities that young people are operating inside of: high debt, uncertain employment, high medical costs, little family help, high mobility, little community support, probable loss of current friendships and support, etc. In that context, late marriage, late parenthood and small families are very understandable.

If we want young people to make different choices about age at marriage, age at parenthood, and family size, perhaps we should work harder to improve the context where they are making choices rather than just throwing rocks and telling them to work harder.

 

[1990Domer]

CHIP in most states is excellent.

I’m glad the community pulled together for them. That shows you all aren’t so isolated

No, not totally. We put together a lot of fundraisers. We babysit, send formula, take her boys on trips, etc. maybe I don’t understand community, because we are the only ones in our neighborhood that helps out.

 

[Xantippe]

Regarding isolation versus luxury (particularly travel):

Because of how geographically scattered friends and family often wind up nowadays, there’s a case to be made that travel is not in opposition to family and friendship and human relationships, but a great supporter of them.

Come to think of it, there’s a reason that the Holy Father TRAVELED to Mexico, rather than Skyping in from Rome–being somewhere in person is different (and more relationship-building) than electronic communication.

My sister’s family spends vast amounts on travel to Europe, but as it happens, that’s where the most involved set of grandparents lives. (And the European grandparents also travel a lot to the US.) This isn’t my sister’s family isolating themselves by spending money on travel, but using travel to cultivate relationships and have family support.

I was talking to my sister, and she mentioned that her best memories of childhood were of the big extended family trips (17 of us) that we used to take every year. It was an opportunity to all be in one place and to do fun stuff together for 5 or 6 days, which just wasn’t feasible otherwise. Quite a lot of families have that tradition of the big family trip–so in that case, travel and family are not at all opposed.

The big family trip continues in my extended family, but our nuclear family has only gone three times over the last 17 years, as we can’t really afford it. And even just with regard to basic family travel, it requires all sorts of magic tricks to get a couple weeks of grandma and grandpa time for the kids. If we were able to travel more, it would be possible for the kids to have better relationships with their grandparents (or at least the more interested set).

And the same goes for friendship–we’ve lived all over, and I often regret not being able to go see this or that old friend.

I feel like there’s way too much acceptance of isolation, as if it’s a luxury to have relationships with people outside your nuclear family. We had a thread in the past year where one of our posters was seriously arguing for the idea that it was an indulgence for an OP to have a car at her disposal so that she could leave the house more than just Mass on Sunday. The poster seriously thought that the OP ought to be home alone with little children ALL week with no other social stimulus.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I don’t think the Holy Father meant that isolation per se was wrong. We still have religious that live as hermits.

Isolation from the Church and from God is wrong.

Not everyone is made to be a social butterfly.

I’m shy, and somewhat introverted, I don’t have many friends. But my close friends have been my friends for 30 years.

Distance as kept us a bit apart. And I don’t have facebook. But I can call them and text and we will always be friends. They are 2 sisters, and they are close friends with my sister and myself.

I remember when my dad died, my sister was still in college. The family offered to pay my sister’s tuition for the remainder of her schooling. Not a loan, a gift. That was one of the most touching things ever. My sister declined the gift.

Italian culture is such that the average age of marriage is 33 for men and 30 for women. Yes the economy is partly to blame. I worked in an office where many were from Italy, temporarily in the US. Only one had 1 child. Most of the married couples had no children because they didn’t want them. They were pretty well off economically. They traveled to nice places. They bought nice things. No kids.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think the Holy Father meant that isolation per se was wrong. We still have religious that live as hermits.

Isolation from the Church and from God is wrong.

Not everyone is made to be a social butterfly.

I’m shy, and somewhat introverted, I don’t have many friends. But my close friends have been my friends for 30 years.

Distance as kept us a bit apart. And I don’t have facebook. But I can call them and text and we will always be friends. They are 2 sisters, and they are close friends with my sister and myself.

I remember when my dad died, my sister was still in college. The family offered to pay my sister’s tuition for the remainder of her schooling. Not a loan, a gift. That was one of the most touching things ever. My sister declined the gift.

Italian culture is such that the average age of marriage is 33 for men and 30 for women. Yes the economy is partly to blame. I worked in an office where many were from Italy, temporarily in the US. Only one had 1 child. Most of the married couples had no children because they didn’t want them. They were pretty well off economically. They traveled to nice places. They bought nice things. No kids.

Aside from the economy, I’ve sometimes heard that one of the reasons that Italian women don’t want more than one child is that their husbands are not very helpful at home and expect to be waited on. Is that fair?

The stats are that European countries with higher expectations of men at home tend to have half a kid more on average–for example 1.9 children per woman in Sweden versus 1.4 in Italy.

I believe Japan has a similar cultural expectations of women and a similar birthrate to Italy.

 

[LongingSoul]

Aside from the economy, I’ve sometimes heard that one of the reasons that Italian women don’t want more than one child is that their husbands are not very helpful at home and expect to be waited on. Is that fair?

The stats are that European countries with higher expectations of men at home tend to have half a kid more on average–for example 1.9 children per woman in Sweden versus 1.4 in Italy.

I believe Japan has a similar cultural expectations of women and a similar birthrate to Italy.

My father in law was an Italian immigrant to Australia. Three of the brothers came out here in the 50’s and had more children between them than the 7 siblings that stayed in Italy.

Italians in Italy have a real fear of poverty since WWII. There’s been a lingering sense of vulnerability since that time that has affected the psyche of families and their sizes. They have pretty high unemployment rates to this day. But it is true in my experience that Italian men aren’t as domesticated as far as what is still considered ‘womens work’.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I don’t think the Holy Father meant that isolation per se was wrong. We still have religious that live as hermits.

Isolation from the Church and from God is wrong.

Not everyone is made to be a social butterfly.

I’m shy, and somewhat introverted, I don’t have many friends. But my close friends have been my friends for 30 years.

Distance as kept us a bit apart. And I don’t have facebook. But I can call them and text and we will always be friends. They are 2 sisters, and they are close friends with my sister and myself.

I remember when my dad died, my sister was still in college. The family offered to pay my sister’s tuition for the remainder of her schooling. Not a loan, a gift. That was one of the most touching things ever. My sister declined the gift.

Italian culture is such that the average age of marriage is 33 for men and 30 for women. Yes the economy is partly to blame. I worked in an office where many were from Italy, temporarily in the US. Only one had 1 child. Most of the married couples had no children because they didn’t want them. They were pretty well off economically. They traveled to nice places. They bought nice things. No kids.

I don’t think he meant isolation per se was wrong, either. Those who choose to live as hermits do just fine, Nevertheless, we teach in moral theology that man has a natural inclination toward life in society, based partly on our dependence on others for survival.

When I lived in Europe, the trend was for southern European men to be very “macho” and not help with the house or the children. The women, though, were extremely bossy and controlling. They couldn’t force the man to do “women’s work,” but they succeeded in making him feel inconsequential.

I preferred the northern men, although I love southern Europe.

 

[1990Domer]

Those are very interesting points.

It’s true that we see many threads from people who feel lonely within their parish communities for one reason or another–being single, not having children, not being a member of the parish clique, etc.

Also, it seems to be the case that one can become socially isolated just by having a family the “wrong” size–no children, “too many” children, children the wrong age, etc, and also through being a special needs parent with a child that looks or behaves oddly.

Yep!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Aside from the economy, I’ve sometimes heard that one of the reasons that Italian women don’t want more than one child is that their husbands are not very helpful at home and expect to be waited on. Is that fair?

The stats are that European countries with higher expectations of men at home tend to have half a kid more on average–for example 1.9 children per woman in Sweden versus 1.4 in Italy.

I believe Japan has a similar cultural expectations of women and a similar birthrate to Italy.

I haven’t been to Italy for about 20 years, but I try to keep up with news, even sporadically.

I have also read in Italian publications, that Italian women feel that the husband is another baby. I am not sure it’s universal throughout Italy. My cousin for example is an Italian man, his wife is Italian American. His hours are such that he is home before his wife for dinner. He makes dinner most nights, and I understand he’s a great cook.

My dad was from Italy. He was very hands on as a dad, and was pretty good in the kitchen. My mother did most of the cooking, but my Dad was always on hand for holiday meal prep. Occasionally he would be in charge of dinner and breakfast.

The people that I worked with all were well off professionals, upper middle class. They didn’t want kids.