Pope has mandated Latin mass can be performed w/o bishop's approval?

[eric3141]

I’ve heard for a while now that the Pope is rumored to change things so that bishops cannot block the traditional latin mass from being said in their diocese. Any news on this? Please pardon my ignorance.

 

[CatQuilt]

This is the Motu Proprio that we’ve been talking about. We don’t know exactly what it’s going to say because it hasn’t been published yet. But there is hope and several organizations are offering to train priests in saying the TLM. So, while we’re waiting for it, good things are happening…

 

[orgel_maestro]

This is the Motu Proprio that we’ve been talking about. We don’t know exactly what it’s going to say because it hasn’t been published yet. But there is hope and several organizations are offering to train priests in saying the TLM. So, while we’re waiting for it, good things are happening…

wait, which organizations do these include besides the Institute of Christ the King which I know they currently do, and probably the FSSP. I’m curious. If I wanted a latin mass said regularly at my parish on Sundays, do you think if I could get enough signatures or whatever and I wrote to the pastor, that we could get one? But, my parish is pretty big already and has 8 masses on Sundays, so I dont know where they’d squeeze it in.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I’ve heard for a while now that the Pope is rumored to change things so that bishops cannot block the traditional latin mass from being said in their diocese. Any news on this? Please pardon my ignorance.

Almost certainly the Pope won’t insist on TLMs being said agaisnt the expressed wishes of the bishop. What he might do is change the system so that instead of the TLM being prohibited unless the bishop gives permission, it is permitted unless the bishop forbids it.

That’s quite a big change, but it doesn’t overrule the bishops in any way, which is something Popes don’t like doing.

 

[childofmary1143]

Almost certainly the Pope won’t insist on TLMs being said agaisnt the expressed wishes of the bishop. What he might do is change the system so that instead of the TLM being prohibited unless the bishop gives permission, it is permitted unless the bishop forbids it.

That’s quite a big change, but it doesn’t overrule the bishops in any way, which is something Popes don’t like doing.

A Bishop can’t prohibit a lawful, valid Mass. So if the Priest is able to, and the architecture is proper then I can’t see him being able to LAWFULLY forbid a Priest to say it.

 

[BobP123]

A Bishop can’t prohibit a lawful, valid Mass. So if the Priest is able to, and the architecture is proper then I can’t see him being able to LAWFULLY forbid a Priest to say it.

In theory maybe. But the reality is that in most parishes, a priest at the main Mass on Sunday, if there is such a thing, won’t be able to make a last minute decision to say the Latin Mass. But maybe that’s what you meant by “architecture is proper”?

 

[orgel_maestro]

A Bishop can’t prohibit a lawful, valid Mass. So if the Priest is able to, and the architecture is proper then I can’t see him being able to LAWFULLY forbid a Priest to say it.

I know before Vatican II, the tabernacle was on the high altar, but most places have them seperate on the side. I’m assuming it must be an absolute must if a priest were to celebrate a Tridentine mass? Since, all the confiteor’s and genuflecting and bowing is directed toward the altar/tabernacle.

 

[childofmary1143]

I know before Vatican II, the tabernacle was on the high altar, but most places have them seperate on the side. I’m assuming it must be an absolute must if a priest were to celebrate a Tridentine mass? Since, all the confiteor’s and genuflecting and bowing is directed toward the altar/tabernacle.

Exactly:thumbsup: and also the table that the tabernacle is on has to be wide enough and deep enough for the Chalice and Mass Cards. How many Churches have that now?

 

[orgel_maestro]

Exactly:thumbsup: and also the table that the tabernacle is on has to be wide enough and deep enough for the Chalice and Mass Cards. How many Churches have that now?

I also noticed, that altars now a days can be made of any sturdy material, none was specified exactly, although marble or granite or some stone is the norm, but I always thought it was an absolute requirement that the consecrating was to be be done on a stone square, i.e. theres a stone at least embedded and consecrated/blessed by the bishop, is that a requirement now? A parish I went to turned the former wooden communion rails into an altar, and theres no stone.

 

[BobP123]

I know before Vatican II, the tabernacle was on the high altar, but most places have them seperate on the side. I’m assuming it must be an absolute must if a priest were to celebrate a Tridentine mass? Since, all the confiteor’s and genuflecting and bowing is directed toward the altar/tabernacle.

I think the bows and genuflecting are directed toward the crucifix. I’ve been at Latin Masses where the center was not the tabernacle.

Though I’ve never been to one which didn’t have the three altar cards.

 

[stmaria]

I’ve heard for a while now that the Pope is rumored to change things so that bishops cannot block the traditional latin mass from being said in their diocese. Any news on this? Please pardon my ignorance.

If this analysis is correct, then steps have already been taken by those who do not want the Traditional Mass:

*Sacramentum Caritatis *February 2007

62 Of this document addresses the saying of the Latin Mass at large gatherings​

63 addresses the Latin Mass communities.​

Eucharistic celebrations in small groups

1. A very different situation arises when, in the interest of more conscious, active and fruitful participation, pastoral circumstances favour small group celebrations. While acknowledging the formative value of this approach, it must be stated that such celebrations should always be consonant with the overall pastoral activity of the Diocese. These celebrations would actually lose their catechetical value if they were felt to be in competition with, or parallel to, the life of the particular Church. In this regard, the Synod set forth some necessary criteria: **small groups must serve to unify the community, not to fragment it; **the beneficial results ought to be clearly evident; these groups should encourage the fruitful participation of the entire assembly, and preserve as much as possible the unity of the liturgical life of individual families. (185)

See full article here
traditioninaction.org/bev/085bev03-13-2007.htm

"These celebrations would actually lose their catechetical value if they were felt to be in competition with, or parallel to, the life of the particular Church.

This translates: If these groups or individuals **should ever criticize the New Mass or make efforts to bring persons who assist at it to their Masses, they could lose their celebret - it would be “a competition.” **This sanction would also apply should they restore traditional norms for penance, fasting, modesty in dress, etc. which conflict in any way with those of the local Bishop: this would be to establish “a parallel life.” Should this occur, they would run the risk of either being excommunicated or having to be incorporated into a Novus Ordo parish.

Paragraph 63 then establishes the criteria for these groups and persons to keep their “catechetical value:”

In this regard, the Synod set forth some necessary criteria: small groups must serve to unify the community, not to fragment it; the beneficial results ought to be clearly evident; these groups should encourage the fruitful participation of the entire assembly, and preserve as much as possible the unity of the liturgical life of individual families.

This translates in several ways:

1. If any censure should come from a traditionalist community regarding the practices of a Novus Ordo parish, the ‘guilty’ priest could lose his celebret;
2. Persons from both the Tridentine Mass parish and the New Mass parish ‘ought’ to socialize, e.g. at gatherings to show ‘evident results’ that they are ‘unifying the community,’ that is, the Diocese. The choir of a Traditional Mass parish could be invited to perform in a Novus Ordo parish to embellish its liturgy or teach its choir Gregorian chant.
3. In the Traditional Mass parishes, the priests ‘should encourage the fruitful participation of the entire assembly.’ Even though there are no examples given in the text, it is clear that some sort of dialogue in the Mass, the kiss of peace, lay people reading the Epistle, and so on, will have to be established to fulfill such demand. Probably the concrete applications will be left to the local Bishop to decide for each particular case

 

[AJV]

If this analysis is correct, then steps have already been taken by those who do not want the Traditional Mass:

*Sacramentum Caritatis *February 2007

62 Of this document addresses the saying of the Latin Mass at large gatherings​

63 addresses the Latin Mass communities.​

Hmmm, is it actually a possibility that it’s not directed to Latin Mass people at all but rather groups who celebrate the Eucharist privately- prayer groups or house liturgies and all that, and even for example, the NeoCatechumenal Way?

 

[eric3141]

A Bishop can’t prohibit a lawful, valid Mass. So if the Priest is able to, and the architecture is proper then I can’t see him being able to LAWFULLY forbid a Priest to say it.

Hmmm… if you are right about that then this would mean that any priest could use the Anglican Use liturgy, right? This liturgy is approved by Rome – not sure if Rome has limited it to situations where the whole Episcopalian / Anglican parish converts but wants to keep an Anglican style liturgy. In the US there are about 6 parishes that use it.

www.atonementonline.com/anglican_use.php

 

[Walking_Home]

Hmmm, is it actually a possibility that it’s not directed to Latin Mass people at all but rather groups who celebrate the Eucharist privately- prayer groups or house liturgies and all that, and even for example, the NeoCatechumenal Way?

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I agree. That is the first thought that came to me.

 

[stmaria]

Hmmm, is it actually a possibility that it’s not directed to Latin Mass people at all but rather groups who celebrate the Eucharist privately- prayer groups or house liturgies and all that, and even for example, the NeoCatechumenal Way?

Read the article and you will see that since #62 concerns the **Latin Mass **in a large-setting it would make since that #63 is about the **Latin Mass **in small settings. This would allow a bishop, that feels that a Latin community is recruiting or encouraging Novus Ordo groups to attend the Latin Mass,to be closed down.

traditioninaction.org/bev/085bev03-13-2007.htm

 

[Walking_Home]

Read the article and you will see that since #62 concerns the **Latin Mass **in a large-setting it would make since that #63 is about the **Latin Mass **in small settings. This would allow a bishop, that feels that a Latin community is recruiting or encouraging Novus Ordo groups to attend the Latin Mass,to be closed down.

traditioninaction.org/bev/085bev03-13-2007.htm

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I read the article—but I still disagree. The section you quoted–is more aimed at groups like the Neocatechumenals. I have come across terms like “parallel” and “Church within a Church” to denote the Neocatechumenals.

 

[Walking_Home]

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I read the article—but I still disagree. The section you quoted–is more aimed at groups like the Neocatechumenals. I have come across terms like “parallel” and “Church within a Church” to denote the Neocatechumenals.

At the same time—I would not put it past a bishop–who really does not want the TLM — to use some similar excuse to do away with it or not allow it.

 

[Ad_Deum]

I hope that the motu propio of the holy father benedict xvi on the sacred liturgy (Tridentine Mass) will be accepted by a large number of cardinals including the liberals. For me the liberalization of the old rite is a very great thing for the holy father to do because this liturgy is sacred, reverent, mystical, and a true Catholic identity. I don’t see it as a threat to the downfall of the Catholic Church because people might go away from attending the chruch. The modern way of worship became abusive and true Catholic identity is gone little by little. The Tridentine Liturgy, I believe, will help us to revive the church which is now full of political stains, and lacking of spiritual directions. Hating or not accepting the Tridentine Liturgy is not a good thing to do, for many saints and martyrs prayed and died for this sacred rite of the Catholic Church.
To the faithful let us all pray and hope!
Peace be with you all!

 

[BobP123]

I hope that the motu propio of the holy father benedict xvi on the sacred liturgy (Tridentine Mass) will be accepted by a large number of cardinals including the liberals.

They should. They elected him Pope, knowing fully well his strong desire for the Traditional Mass.