Pope John Paul II and the nature/grace debate

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Anyone know what side he took, if any?

Here it is argued that he didn’t really take a side, while here it is argued he sided with de Lubac.

I’m inclined to think he sided with the nouvelle theologie since Cardinal Meisner once said that the Polish Pope told him, “The theological profile of my Pontificate I owe Joseph Ratzinger.” But I’m not sure (yet).
 
I didn’t expect anything but still, come on. Nothing? :tsktsk:

🙂
 
How so? We all have an infinite desire more Goodness. Whether this translates into a direct desire for the Beatific Vision doesn’t seem debatable, becfause God would owe it to us if that was so.
 
How so? We all have an infinite desire more Goodness. Whether this translates into a direct desire for the Beatific Vision doesn’t seem debatable, becfause God would owe it to us if that was so.
How would he owe a gift?

(playing devil’s advocate here, since I haven’t taken a side yet)
 
If we naturally desired the Beatific Vision like we do water, than God would have owed us it in our original state, instead of it being a free gift. have to side with the trads on this one
 
If we naturally desired the Beatific Vision like we do water, than God would have owed us it in our original state, instead of it being a free gift. have to side with the trads on this one
Perhaps this thread is a better place to discuss this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=889181

I wanted this thread to be specifically about Pope St. John Paul II’s thoughts on the issue, if anyone has any idea on what position he took.
 
In his Wednesday Address on Man & Woman (May 14, 1980) footnote 1 John Paul II writes:

The Magisterium of the Church dealt more closely with these problems, in three periods, according to the needs of the age.

The declarations of the period of the controversies with the Pelagians (V-VI centuries) affirm that the first man, by virtue of divine grace, possessed “naturalem possibilitatem et innocentiam” (DS 239), also called “freedom” (“libertas,” “libertas arbitrii”), (DS 371, 242, 383, 622). He remained in a state which the Synod of Orange (in the year 529) calls “integritas”: “Natura humana, etiamsi in illa integritate, in qua condita est, permaneret, nullo modo se ipsam, Creatore suo non adiuvante, servaret…” (DS 389).

The concepts of integritas and, in particular, that of libertas, presuppose freedom from concupiscence, although the ecclesiastical documents of this age do not mention it explicitly.

The first man was furthermore free from the necessity of death (cf. DS 222, 372, 1511).

The Council of Trent defines the state of the first man, prior to sin, as “holiness and justice” (“sanctitas et iustitia”—DS 1511, 1512) or as “innocence” (“innocentia”—DS 1521).

Further declarations on this matter defend the absolute gratuitousness of the original gift of grace, against the affirmations of the Jansenists. The “integritas primae creationis” was an unmerited elevation of human nature (“indebita humanae naturae exaltatio”) and not “the state due to him by nature” (“naturalis eius condicio”—DS 1926). God, therefore, could have created man without these graces and gifts (cf. DS 1955); that would not have shattered the essence of human nature and would not have deprived it of its fundamental privileges (cf. DS 1903-1907, 1909, 1921, 1923, 1924, 1926, 1955, 2434, 2437, 2616, 2617).

In analogy with the anti-Pelagian Synod, the Council of Trent deals above all with the dogma of original sin, integrating in its teaching preceding declarations in this connection. Here, however, a certain clarification was introduced, which partly changed the content comprised in the concept of liberum arbitrium. The “freedom” or “free will” of the anti-Pelagian documents did not mean the possibility of choice, connected with human nature, and therefore constant, but referred only to the possibility of carrying out meritorious acts, the freedom that springs from grace and that man may lose.

Because of sin, Adam lost what did not belong to human nature in the strict sense of the word, that is integritas, sanctitas, innocentia, iustitia. Liberum arbitrium, free will, was not taken away, but became weaker:
"…liberum arbitrium minime exstinctum…viribus licet attenuatum et inclinatum… (DS 1521–Trid. Sess. VI, Decr. de Justificatione, C. 1).

Together with sin appears concupiscence and the inevitability of death:
“…primum hominem…cum mandatum Dei…fuisset transgressus, statim sanctitatem et iustitiam, in qua constitutus fuerat, amisisse incurrisseque per offensam praevaricationis huismodi iram et indignationem Dei atque ideo mortem…et cum morte captivatatem sub eius potestate, qui ‘mortis’ deinde ‘habuit imperium’…‘totumque Adam per illam praevaricationis offensam secumdum corpous et animam in deterius commutatum fuisse…’” (DS 1511, Trid. Sess. V, Decr. de Pecc. Orig. 1).
Cf. Mysterium Salutis, II, Einsiedeln-Zuirch-Köln 1967, pp. 827-828; W. Seibel, “Der Mensch als Gottes übernatürliches Ebenbild und der Urstand des Menschen.”

For some reason he does not quote Humani Generis, #26 (DS 3891): “Others destroy the gratuity of the supernatural order, since God, they say, cannot create intellectual beings without ordering and calling them to the beatific vision.”

Although to my mind in the highlighted paragraph he affirms the same thing.
 
In his Wednesday Address on Man & Woman (May 14, 1980) footnote 1 John Paul II writes:

The Magisterium of the Church dealt more closely with these problems, in three periods, according to the needs of the age.

The declarations of the period of the controversies with the Pelagians (V-VI centuries) affirm that the first man, by virtue of divine grace, possessed “naturalem possibilitatem et innocentiam” (DS 239), also called “freedom” (“libertas,” “libertas arbitrii”), (DS 371, 242, 383, 622). He remained in a state which the Synod of Orange (in the year 529) calls “integritas”: “Natura humana, etiamsi in illa integritate, in qua condita est, permaneret, nullo modo se ipsam, Creatore suo non adiuvante, servaret…” (DS 389).

The concepts of integritas and, in particular, that of libertas, presuppose freedom from concupiscence, although the ecclesiastical documents of this age do not mention it explicitly.

The first man was furthermore free from the necessity of death (cf. DS 222, 372, 1511).

The Council of Trent defines the state of the first man, prior to sin, as “holiness and justice” (“sanctitas et iustitia”—DS 1511, 1512) or as “innocence” (“innocentia”—DS 1521).

Further declarations on this matter defend the absolute gratuitousness of the original gift of grace, against the affirmations of the Jansenists. The “integritas primae creationis” was an unmerited elevation of human nature (“indebita humanae naturae exaltatio”) and not “the state due to him by nature” (“naturalis eius condicio”—DS 1926). God, therefore, could have created man without these graces and gifts (cf. DS 1955); that would not have shattered the essence of human nature and would not have deprived it of its fundamental privileges (cf. DS 1903-1907, 1909, 1921, 1923, 1924, 1926, 1955, 2434, 2437, 2616, 2617).

In analogy with the anti-Pelagian Synod, the Council of Trent deals above all with the dogma of original sin, integrating in its teaching preceding declarations in this connection. Here, however, a certain clarification was introduced, which partly changed the content comprised in the concept of liberum arbitrium. The “freedom” or “free will” of the anti-Pelagian documents did not mean the possibility of choice, connected with human nature, and therefore constant, but referred only to the possibility of carrying out meritorious acts, the freedom that springs from grace and that man may lose.

Because of sin, Adam lost what did not belong to human nature in the strict sense of the word, that is integritas, sanctitas, innocentia, iustitia. Liberum arbitrium, free will, was not taken away, but became weaker:
"…liberum arbitrium minime exstinctum…viribus licet attenuatum et inclinatum… (DS 1521–Trid. Sess. VI, Decr. de Justificatione, C. 1).

Together with sin appears concupiscence and the inevitability of death:
“…primum hominem…cum mandatum Dei…fuisset transgressus, statim sanctitatem et iustitiam, in qua constitutus fuerat, amisisse incurrisseque per offensam praevaricationis huismodi iram et indignationem Dei atque ideo mortem…et cum morte captivatatem sub eius potestate, qui ‘mortis’ deinde ‘habuit imperium’…‘totumque Adam per illam praevaricationis offensam secumdum corpous et animam in deterius commutatum fuisse…’” (DS 1511, Trid. Sess. V, Decr. de Pecc. Orig. 1).
Cf. Mysterium Salutis, II, Einsiedeln-Zuirch-Köln 1967, pp. 827-828; W. Seibel, “Der Mensch als Gottes übernatürliches Ebenbild und der Urstand des Menschen.”

For some reason he does not quote Humani Generis, #26 (DS 3891): “Others destroy the gratuity of the supernatural order, since God, they say, cannot create intellectual beings without ordering and calling them to the beatific vision.”

Although to my mind in the highlighted paragraph he affirms the same thing.
That implies a neoscholastic view, but then again we have this from the Catechism (1718):

1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it

Me: :confused:🤷
 
That doesn’t mean the beatific vision per se. Don’t “destroy the gratuity of the supernatural order”
 
That implies a neoscholastic view, but then again we have this from the Catechism (1718):

1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it

Me: :confused:🤷
The point at issue is not whether we have a “natural desire” for God which both Aquinas and the CCC teach.

The point at issue is whether this desire is an innate inclination for God as given in grace culminating in the Beatific Vision, or whether it is an elicited desire for God as capable of being naturally known based on the innate inclination of the intellect to search for the truth about the foundation of all things. The church has sided with the latter.

An innate inclination is when the object is attainable by the operation of the power in question as, for example, natural truths are attainable by the unaided human intellect. The human intellect once created is made for and “owed” reality by its very nature. Without reality it would not have the object it was made to attain by its intrinsic powers.

The human intellect does not need divine revelation, grace, and the beatific vision to do what it was made to do, nor can it attain the supernatural by its own power. This is a gift taking human nature above and beyond what it can do by its own capabilities.

There is no bigger fan of De Lubac than I am. I read The Mystery of the Supernatural and Augustinianism and Modern Theology. And many others.

I would recommend reading, The Catholic University of America Press, 2004The Natural Desire to See God According to St. Thomas and His Interpreters. It’s clear that, as well meaning as de Lubac was on this specific theme, he got it wrong. Feingold makes it clear that he is only addressing this theme: he lauds de Lubac’s ecclesiology.
 
The point at issue is not whether we have a “natural desire” for God which both Aquinas and the CCC teach.

The point at issue is whether this desire is an innate inclination for God as given in grace culminating in the Beatific Vision, or whether it is an elicited desire for God as capable of being naturally known based on the innate inclination of the intellect to search for the truth about the foundation of all things. The church has sided with the latter.

An innate inclination is when the object is attainable by the operation of the power in question as, for example, natural truths are attainable by the unaided human intellect. The human intellect once created is made for and “owed” reality by its very nature. Without reality it would not have the object it was made to attain by its intrinsic powers.

The human intellect does not need divine revelation, grace, and the beatific vision to do what it was made to do, nor can it attain the supernatural by its own power. This is a gift taking human nature above and beyond what it can do by its own capabilities.

There is no bigger fan of De Lubac than I am. I read The Mystery of the Supernatural and Augustinianism and Modern Theology. And many others.

I would recommend reading Lawrence Feingold, The Natural Desire to See God According to St. Thomas and His Interpreters, The Catholic University of America Press, 2004. It’s clear that, as well meaning as de Lubac was on this specific theme, he got it wrong. Feingold makes it clear that he is only addressing this theme: he lauds de Lubac’s ecclesiology.
You seem to be siding with de Lubac’s critics
 
You seem to be siding with de Lubac’s critics
Yes. On that particular point I think he meant well but got it wrong. For the reasons I gave: in arguing that we have an innate inclination for the supernatural order he actually departs from Aquinas and endangers the gratuity of the supernatural order by effectively making the supernatural essentially necessary to human nature in order for human nature to be what it is.

If you are interested in the issue, Feingold’s book mentioned above is excellent.
 
Yes. On that particular point I think he meant well but got it wrong. For the reasons I gave: in arguing that we have an innate inclination for the supernatural order he actually departs from Aquinas and endangers the gratuity of the supernatural order by effectively making the supernatural essentially necessary to human nature in order for human nature to be what it is.

If you are interested in the issue, Feingold’s book mentioned above is excellent.
What are your thoughts on Lonergan’s answer? How about Rahner’s?
 
What are your thoughts on Lonergan’s answer? How about Rahner’s?
On this particular subject I haven’t read either enough to make a judgment. Feingold’s work evaluates de Lubac in the light of Aquinas and his commentators, the essential framework for the church’s own framing of the issue.

Although isolated articles and themes of Rahner’s are very enlightening (e.g., the profound interconnection of revelation, grace, and the Beatific Vision), in general, I’m not the biggest fan due to epistemological foundation’s in transcendental Thomism via Maréchal.
 
On this particular subject I haven’t read either enough to make a judgment. Feingold’s work evaluates de Lubac in the light of Aquinas and his commentators, the essential framework for the church’s own framing of the issue.

Although isolated articles and themes of Rahner’s are very enlightening (e.g., the profound interconnection of revelation, grace, and the Beatific Vision), in general, I’m not the biggest fan due to epistemological foundation’s in transcendental Thomism via Maréchal.
What’s the problem with Maréchal?
 
What’s the problem with Maréchal?
He is a “critical realist.” That means he wants to justify realism in today’s world by starting from Kantian (and so also to some extent Cartesian and Humean) starting points and work his way out to realism.

The problem is that if one does not start in their philosophizing with the immediate grasp of being rooted in sense experience and epistemologically justify this stance but instead doubts this, they never work their way out. This is because to do so one has to assume there is a truth more fundamental upon which one can base realism.

But the only option left is the mind/thought. Yet as Descartes discovered there is no way out except to postulate that God wouldn’t deceive him. Kant just taught we have no direct access to the noumenal world, things in themselves. He proposed a Copernican revolution in thought: our mind does not conform to things themselves, but “things” conform to the mind. We only know the phenomenal world, the result of the interaction of the noumena with innate categories of thought. And there is no way out of that to realism. This is why these two are among those dubbed idealists.

I can go further into this if you like, but that is the thing in a nut shell.
 
I’m not sure if this contributes anything, but I came across this little part in Crossing the Threshold of Hope where St. JPII says, “Only in transcending himself does man become fully human…This is the most profound truth about man.” (p. 104)

🤷
 
The church has sided with the latter…

It’s clear that, as well meaning as de Lubac was on this specific theme, he got it wrong.
von Balthasar thought the same as de Lubac on this issue, correct?

“What the pope intended to express by this mark of distinction, and of honor, remains valid, no longer only private individuals but the Church itself, in its official responsibility, tells us that he is right in what he teaches of the faith.” (Card. Ratzinger about vB)
 
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