POPE said hell is imaginary?

[flatliner]

Did the pope say that hell was imaginary? If he did, was it an infallible pronouncment?
Someone said he did, but I can’t believe it. anyone out there heard of this?

 

[mlchance]

flatliner:

Did the pope say that hell was imaginary? If he did, was it an infallible pronouncment?
Someone said he did, but I can’t believe it. anyone out there heard of this?

No, he didn’t.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Exporter]

If you have studies philosophy at all you know there cannot be a house which has an inside but no outside. There cannot be an UP without there being a DOWN.

How could there be a good without a bad? How can there be a heaven without a hell?

THIMK !

 

[Timidity]

mlchance:

No, he didn’t.

Can you tell me in which document he didn’t say that? It would finally prove that he didn’t say it…

Sorry–feeling a bit silly right now.

 

[mlchance]

Exporter:

How could there be a good without a bad? How can there be a heaven without a hell?

Good is not a consequence of bad. Good can “exist” without bad quite fine. Hell is not a consequence of Heaven, but rather is a consequence of human sin.

Such crude dualism (i.e., there can be no good without evil) holds water as well as sieve.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Melissa]

Although it’s in translation, you might check here to see what was said (if the reference is to the particular statement I’m thinking of).

The Pope did not say that Hell is imaginary, but did try to draw attention to the realities of Hell which aren’t anything like Far Side cartoons.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Oh dear… here is another “the Pope said”… Without looking it up, I san safely say, and if I am wrong I will eat my hat, the Pope did not say hell is imaginary!:nope:

 

[Reformed_Rob]

I looked over that link from above, and very likely that was to the talks by John Paul II in question. He said basically (as Thomas Aquinas proposed) that Hell is not a “place” in the way that we generally understand “places” to be. Here’s the copy/paste:

In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

    **"Incorporeal things are not in *place* after a manner known and familiar to     us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in *place*; but they are in *place*     after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to     us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, *Summa Theologiae**, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

He in no way denies that Hell “exists” but it is more of a talk on the nature of it (and purgatory and heaven) in relation to the nature of souls. Here’s another bit:

The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).

An obvious question to come up is “what about after the resurrection and our souls being reunited with our bodies and being judged before God?” Well, here is a note from the web page:

***[Note: The original Italian says, “(Più che) More than a place, hell indicates…” This suggests correctly that although hell is not essentially “a place,” rather the definitive loss of God, confinement is included. Thus, after the general resurrection the bodies of the damned, being bodies not spirits, must be in “some place,” in which they will receive the punishment of fire.
**

If indeed these talks are what gave rise to this concern, then it is easily enough dispelled, even by a Protestant with the web link and some copy and paste. These non-substantiated rumors only make the Catholic church look more vindicated against Her opponents! :tsktsk:

 

[flatliner]

I’m not sure if this is what the girl who said it was talking about or not, but it is a good candidate. I was sure the pope didn’t say hell was imaginary, but i can see how someone might have misunderstood what he actually said.
Sometimes it takes a certain spiritual and theological sophistication to fully grasp the truths the pope communicates to us. We would all be wise, it seems, to study them carefully before jumping to conclusions.
Thank you all.

 

[chrisb]

Peace be with you Reformed Rob,

Thanks for the post “Rob” I really liked what John Paul II said regarding deeper understanding on these very complex doctrines and dogmas.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

 

[srkbdk]

tru_dvotion:

Oh dear… here is another “the Pope said”… Without looking it up, I san safely say, and if I am wrong I will eat my hat, the Pope did not say hell is imaginary!:nope:

I agree by the way my hat is red.

 

[mercygate]

Melissa:

The Pope . . . did try to draw attention to the realities of Hell which aren’t anything like Far Side cartoons.

Shucks! You mean I won’t get my accordion?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Reformed Rob:

I looked over that link from above, and very likely that was to the talks by John Paul II in question. He said basically (as Thomas Aquinas proposed) that Hell is not a “place” in the way that we generally understand “places” to be. Here’s the copy/paste:

In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, *Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

He in no way denies that Hell “exists” but it is more of a talk on the nature of it (and purgatory and heaven) in relation to the nature of souls. Here’s another bit:

The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).

An obvious question to come up is “what about after the resurrection and our souls being reunited with our bodies and being judged before God?” Well, here is a note from the web page:

*[Note: The original Italian says, “(Più che) More than a place, hell indicates…” This suggests correctly that although hell is not essentially “a place,” rather the definitive loss of God, confinement is included. Thus, after the general resurrection the bodies of the damned, being bodies not spirits, must be in “some place,” in which they will receive the punishment of fire.

---

If indeed these talks are what gave rise to this concern, then it is easily enough dispelled, even by a Protestant with the web link and some copy and paste. These non-substantiated rumors only make the Catholic church look more vindicated against Her opponents! :tsktsk:

And FWIW, the Ascension can’t be localised either - “going to Heaven” is not like going to a place on the map. So there is no need to be thrown by clever questions like “Did Jesus go in a straight line ?”, or, “Wouldn’t a space-ship have been quicker?”.​

If people can believe in the Ascension, worries about the location, average temperature, and source of fuel in Hell should be no problem - because Hell is not that “sort” of “place”.

If the glorified body of the God-man (whose glorified Humanity is, after all, the model for our own) can somehow transcend or ignore space - perhaps the same will be true of the bodies of the Blessed after the resurrection. As for the others, C.S. Lewis has some ideas - see “The Great Divorce” in particular. His idea of the Blessed as being solid and heavy, seems to be prompted by the Old Testament. Perhaps Jesus Glorified was too solid and real to be bothered by a little detail such as the physics of the created universe ##