Pope says one Mass in the long-term

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Here is the article. Sorry it isn’t zent (I read lots of articles) but still the sources are not fishy at all.

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/05/20/the-pope%E2%80%99s-ambition-a-powerful-blend-of-the-novus-ordo-and-the-old-rite-could-sweep-the-church/
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“The Pope’s long-term aim is not simply to allow the old and new rites to co-exist, but to move toward a ‘common rite’ that is shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms.”
The Usus antiquior is already enriched by the New form, being most of the TLM’s Missa Cantata. And there are some signs that the New Form will change too (e.g. increasing number of communion on tongue, Gregorian chant as part of the new form). But in the foreseeable future the desire for unity accepting the view of th other side and obedience to the Magisterium what would be required for a united form, is missing in both sides.
 
The Council of Trent forbade an all vernacular Roman Rite liturgy. Canon 9 of Session 23 teaches infallibly–If any one says that the Mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only --let him be anathema.

I thought that meant that the Mass should be left in Latin. I thought that in translating the Latin into the vernacular the Mass could possibly be corrupted.

I like the Mass in English but I wish they would have translated all the prayers and left the prayers at the foot of the alter. But that is just my opinion.
 
A schism only among those without suffiecient faith in the Papacy. Too many Laymen are taking on too much power or pretend authority in the Church. This goes for both ends of the spectrum.

Now or in future the Pope may do somethings I like and somethings I don’t but I will live with it. Isn’t this our call?
The pope is *guardian *of the Church’s tradition, not superior to it. He is also the focus of unity in the Church and has to act pastorally to appease human weakness (what the easterns call ‘economia’) in order to preserve communion in the Church. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, before his election as Pope Benedict XVI, observed that a big factor in the liturgical crisis was that people believed popes had the right to do whatever they wanted with the liturgy. And Counter-Reformation centralism (and especially the setting up of the Congregation for Rites) is more to blame for that than Vatican II. Hull’s The Banished Heart also sets the Latin liturgical crisis in the context of the bureaucratic legalism that developed in the last few centuries, in contrast to the organic development which existed in pre-Reformation times and still does in the Orthodox Church. IMHO committees should not compose liturgies.
 
QUOTE=puzzleannie;8063720]well what ever direction the Mass develops organically in the future I hope they keep the revised lectionary, to my mind the most significant and beneficial of the changes that ensued after 1968. If we can see the OF stripped of abuses that were never intended and never mandated in any V2 proceeding or document-- most of which are banned topics here but we all know what they are – that will go a long way.

What are they and why are they banned?
Thanks
 
IMHO committees should not compose liturgies.
The only other alternatives are the one person of the anarchy of free choice by anybody. The mumified state of the Tridentine Mass before St Pius X and the present direction of the New form of the Mass is the proof, that both are wrong.

The work of the committees can not be avoided, only they shall be operating based on some rules, like the governments work under the Constitutions.
 
The Council of Trent forbade an all vernacular Roman Rite liturgy. Canon 9 of Session 23 teaches infallibly–If any one says that the Mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only --let him be anathema.
I don’t have the exact text of Canon 9 of Session 23 in front of me, but if it’s exactly as you quote, the key word would be “ONLY”. In other words, the use of vernacular language would be permitted, but the Mass cannot be ONLY allowed in the vernacular. Keep in mind that exceptions allowing the Roman Rite in the vernacular, even around the time of Trent, WERE permitted. In fact, in what would become the Czech Republic, a vernacular liturgy was permitted as a reform in order to combat the heresies of Jan Hus.
 
I don’t have the exact text of Canon 9 of Session 23 in front of me, but if it’s exactly as you quote, the key word would be “ONLY”. In other words, the use of vernacular language would be permitted, but the Mass cannot be ONLY allowed in the vernacular. Keep in mind that exceptions allowing the Roman Rite in the vernacular, even around the time of Trent, WERE permitted. In fact, in what would become the Czech Republic, a vernacular liturgy was permitted as a reform in order to combat the heresies of Jan Hus.
956 Can. 9. If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church, according
to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are
pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned, or that the Mass ought to
be celebrated in the vernacular only, or that water should not be mixed
with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice because it is
contrary to the institution of Christ: let him be anathema [cf. n. 943, 945 f.].
The previous discussion make is clear that this is not something declared as infallible statement only something for the actual circustantences:

C
hap. 8. [The Mass not to be Celebrated in the Vernacular,
and its Mysteries to be Explained to the People]
946 Although the Mass contains much instruction for the
faithful, it has nevertheless not seemed expedient to the Fathers that
it be celebrated everywhere in the vernacular [can. 9].
The point is that as the Bible need interpretation the Living Tradition, so does the frozen Tradition. No sentences may be taken and used against the Living Magisterium, whp has the power to bind and loose.
 
I don’t have the exact text of Canon 9 of Session 23 in front of me, but if it’s exactly as you quote, the key word would be “ONLY”. In other words, the use of vernacular language would be permitted, but the Mass cannot be ONLY allowed in the vernacular. Keep in mind that exceptions allowing the Roman Rite in the vernacular, even around the time of Trent, WERE permitted. In fact, in what would become the Czech Republic, a vernacular liturgy was permitted as a reform in order to combat the heresies of Jan Hus.
Perhaps what you’re referring to is a very biased translation.
DOCTRINA DE SACRIFICIO MISSÆ
Caput VIII. (Chapter VIII.)
Missa vulgari lingua non celebretur. Ejus mysteria populo explicentur. (On not celebrating the Mass every where (?) in the vulgar tongue; the mysteries of the Mass to be explained to the people.)

Etsi missa magnam contineat populi fidelis eruditionem; non tamen expedire visum est patribus, ut vulgari passim lingua celebraretur. Quamobrem, retento ubique cujusque Ecclesiæ antiquo et a sancta Romana Ecclesia, omnium ecclesiarum matre et magistra, probato ritu, ne oves Christi esuriant, neve parvuli panem petant et non sit qui frangat eis, mandat sancta synodus pastoribus et singulis curam animarum gerentibus, ut frequenter inter missarum celebrationem vel per se vel per alios ex iis, quæ in missa leguntur, aliquid exponant; atque inter cetera sanctissimi hujus sacrificii mysterium aliquod declarent, diebus præsertim dominicis et festis. (Although the mass contains great instruction for the faithful people, nevertheless, it has not seemed expedient to the Fathers that it should be every where (?) celebrated in the vulgar tongue. Wherefore, the ancient usage of each Church, and the rite approved of by the holy Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all churches, being in each place retained; and, that the sheep of Christ may not suffer hunger, nor the little ones ask for bread, and there be none to break it unto them,251251 Lam. iv. 4. the holy Synod charges pastors, and all who have the cure of souls, that they frequently, during the celebration of mass, expound either by themselves, or others, some portion of those things which are read at Mass, and that, amongst the rest, they explain some mystery of this most holy sacrifice, especially on the Lord’s days and festivals. )
 
I don’t have the exact text of Canon 9 of Session 23 in front of me, but if it’s exactly as you quote, the key word would be “ONLY”. In other words, the use of vernacular language would be permitted, but the Mass cannot be ONLY allowed in the vernacular. Keep in mind that exceptions allowing the Roman Rite in the vernacular, even around the time of Trent, WERE permitted. In fact, in what would become the Czech Republic, a vernacular liturgy was permitted as a reform in order to combat the heresies of Jan Hus.
Right. There are two things the Council said here: (1) the Mass is not to be celebrated in the vernacular, and (2) if anyone says that it should only be celebrated in the vernacular, anathema sit. The first part is completely non-dogmatic and merely a reformable choice with respect to discipline, as the Council make clear when it says “non . . . expedire visum est,” “it doesn’t appear advantageous.” The second part is the dogmatic portion; it was a response to Protestant heresies which said that the Mass was not a sacrifice and was not valuable in itself, but required the assembly’s participation to have any worth. This becomes especially clear when you look at the context of the other canons on the Mass promulgated along with it
 
Thanks all for the clarification.

I was under the impression that the Mass was to be said in Latin all over so that it would be uniform in every church.

I was also under the impression that all words cannot be exactly translated and some corruption could take place.

I do know in my parish I asked for the Latin Mass to be said at least once a month and was told that the pastor didn’t or couldn’t find a priest who could say the Latin Mass. I found that disheartening
 
I do know in my parish I asked for the Latin Mass to be said at least once a month and was told that the pastor didn’t or couldn’t find a priest who could say the Latin Mass. I found that disheartening
It is, but it’s also not unusual. The next step is to make the request to your bishop. Make your request polite, respectful, and in writing.
 
I was under the impression that the Mass was to be said in Latin all over so that it would be uniform in every church.
Yes. Even after he “allowed” the all-vernacular Mass, Paul VI issued his Jubilate Deo.
“In April 1974 Pope Paul VI sent to every bishop in the world a booklet of some of the simplest selections of Gregorian Chant, much of it drawn from the Graduale Romanum. This booklet, called Jubilate Deo, was intended as a “minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant”. It is, in other words, an official Latin “core repertoire” for the Roman Rite. It was prepared, the Pope said, in order “to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living tradition of the past. Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing cannot refuse Gregorian chant the place which is due to it” (Voluntati Obsequens).”

adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html
I was also under the impression that all words cannot be exactly translated and some corruption could take place.
Comes with the territory. No translations are exact. And as more illiterates and half literates speak them, national languages tend to get corrupted.
 
Yes. Even after he “allowed” the all-vernacular Mass, Paul VI issued his Jubilate Deo.

Comes with the territory. No translations are exact. And as more illiterates and half literates speak them, national languages tend to get corrupted.
We are getting a new pastor in Sept. He might be more open to the Latin Mass.
 
The Council of Trent forbade an all vernacular Roman Rite liturgy. Canon 9 of Session 23 teaches infallibly–If any one says that the Mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only --let him be anathema.

I thought that meant that the Mass should be left in Latin. I thought that in translating the Latin into the vernacular the Mass could possibly be corrupted.

I like the Mass in English but I wish they would have translated all the prayers and left the prayers at the foot of the alter. But that is just my opinion.
Yes and the pope who called VII decreed in Veterum Sapientia that no one even speak of a vernacular liturgy.

But what happened ? Perhaps this :cool:
On a rainy night at the Council not long after the funeral Mass of JXXIII -
Cardinal 1 - “Let us offer a prayer of thanksgiving for our dear Pope John for calling this Council, before we begin this evening’s session”
Cardinal 1 - "Anyone else have anything we should acknowledge ? "
after a few moments of silence
Cardinal 2 - "I suppose that’s about it "
Cardinal 3 - “Wait, I’d like to acknowledge his wonderful Apostolic Constitution Veterum Sapientia !”
after a few moments of silence
Cardinal 1 grins - “Dominus Vobiscum Cardinal 3”
laughter fills the building
 
Never heard of that! The Church can change tradition though can’t it? I mean if we can’t then I believe we have excommunicated ourselves by changing the Mass and allowing total vernacular…
 
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