Pope Threatning Excommunications?

[PiousTemplar]

In history books on the Medieval times that I read, the picture they paint on the Church makes me often cringe. They make it sound like its some brainwashing cult in which it made everyone pay a tithe or be punished etc etc.

In one of them I’m reading at the moment, it often states that Popes threatened excommunications on European emperors and kings.

“For a cenury the Popes feared for their possesions and power. Once more they tried crushing the emperors by excommunication.”

From my belief, I didn’t think threatning an Excommunication was even possible. God wouldn’t recognise it as valid, if it was used as some sort of ‘sit down and shutup’ tool.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’d be interested to know who wrote the book and what their particular slant was. I am aware a Pope excommunicated a German emperor about a century before the Reformation took place, but I’m not aware the popes used the threat of excommunication like a spiritual screw driver in the papal tool box. The said emperor prayed in the snow for three days to get it lifted if my (sometimes faulty) memory is correct. I also wonder if the historical memory of that humiliation had some bearing on the fact the Reformation took place first in Germany, and had its most violent nexus there.

It sounds like half baked history to me, with a leaning towards Protestant bigotry.

 

[Shin]

One of the reasons I prefer to read the sources is that the commentary out there is generally full of malarkey.

 

[JRKH]

I agree with Bob that one would need to know the book, author etc to get the larger perspective on what and how he writes…

That said though, There is likely some truth to it.
The Church found itself thrust into the political arena after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and over time became rather mired in the politics of the day. This state of affairs continued up into the nineteen century and the final unification of Italy…
As a Catholic, I am glad the Church is no longer in this position. It makes her much freer to pursue her true mission of spiritual leadership.

That said, we can look and see that, in spite of this, the core teachings of the faith were not lost. In spite of sinful men, Christ protected His Church just as He promised.

As for whether God would recognize the threat of excommunication, one would have to examine the various moral and religious and political reasons for the threat of excommunciation.

Peace
James

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Excommunication has at its heart the prevention of leading others into sin. For example when the King of England continued to trade wives he developed an antagonistic relationship with the Church, which eventually lead to the King forming the Church of England so the King could claim his own false moral authority on marriage. Similarly the great schism was sparked by a royal family member who committed adultery, fornication regularly and continued to receive communion until the bishop refused to offer communion to him. Even today letters were sent to some key USA catholic politicians concerning publicly claiming a false position of the church teaching on abortion. By no means can tithe and excommunication be linked.
Hope that helps

 

[PiousTemplar]

Thanks for the replys guys, and yes, it references the ‘prayed in the snow for three days to get it lifted’.

The book name is ‘Renaissance to Revolution’ by ‘Curtis International/Library of Knowlege’

Sorry I couldn’t find a name. It just says ‘Aldus Books Limited, London, 1968.’

 

[Rolltide]

Thanks for the replys guys, and yes, it references the ‘prayed in the snow for three days to get it lifted’.

The book name is ‘Renaissance to Revolution’ by ‘Curtis International/Library of Knowlege’

Sorry I couldn’t find a name. It just says ‘Aldus Books Limited, London, 1968.’

That sounds like the controversy involving Henry IV, the Holy Roman Emperor, during the Investiture Struggle. I don’t have much time to respond, but in short, the Holy Roman Emperor was installing his own bishops and priests without consulting the pope for the express purpose of supporting his regime from the pulpit during homilies on Sunday. Pope Gregory thus excommunicated Henry for his actions, at which point Henry simply declared the German church independent of Rome’s control. This spawned riots and revolts all over the various small German territories, since most were appalled by the emperor’s actions. Henry IV needed support from the pulpit to maintain control of the pitifully weak Holy Roman Empire, but he also needed to stop the revolts or he’d be overthrown anyway. So, he went to the pope to confess and ask for the excommunication to be lifted. However, suspecting that Henry was only out for political gain, Gregory tested Henry in several ways (such as refusing to meet with him, and yes, forcing him to pray out in the rain or snow) to see if he could determine if his intentions were genuine. When it was determined that he was, the pope heard his confession and lifted the excommunication. Later, when he realized his power was slipping again, he tried the same stunt, and this time died from the revolts while under excommunication.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Church does indeed have some dirty laundry in her history.

Pope’s led armies into wars and Bishops often threatened people with excommunication and threats of mortal sin if they didn’t cooperate in various ways.

What I have learned is that it’s better to acknowledge the dirty parts of Church history, rather than attempt to deny their existence.

It actually serves you better spiritually.

At the same time, keep in mind that much of the world history we learned in the West, comes via, England, which of course was an anti-Catholic empire for centuries.

The so called, “Black Legends,” was propaganda produced by England who was at war with the Catholic nation of Spain.

Some of the erroneous accounts from the Black Legends, made it into Western History books which we studied in grade school here in the USA.

Jim

 

[LARSCOUT0311]

At the same time, keep in mind that much of the world history we learned in the West, comes via, England, which of course was an anti-Catholic empire for centuries.

There is an excellent show on EWTN called The Quest for Shakespeare which details this hatred and how affluent Catholics hid their church affiliations. Also, it breaks down how Shakespeare hid many Catholic messages in his plays and how he made fun of the aristocracy.

 

[ProVobis]

At the same time, keep in mind that much of the world history we learned in the West, comes via, England, which of course was an anti-Catholic empire for centuries.

The so called, “Black Legends,” was propaganda produced by England who was at war with the Catholic nation of Spain.

Some of the erroneous accounts from the Black Legends, made it into Western History books which we studied in grade school here in the USA.

So the Anglo-Saxon barbarians are a myth?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So the Anglo-Saxon barbarians are a myth?

Not sure I understand your question?

Anglo-Saxons were predominately English and German, not Spanish, Portuguese, French and Italians.

Jim

 

[fhansen]

In history books on the Medieval times that I read, the picture they paint on the Church makes me often cringe. They make it sound like its some brainwashing cult in which it made everyone pay a tithe or be punished etc etc.

In one of them I’m reading at the moment, it often states that Popes threatened excommunications on European emperors and kings.

“For a cenury the Popes feared for their possesions and power. Once more they tried crushing the emperors by excommunication.”

From my belief, I didn’t think threatning an Excommunication was even possible. God wouldn’t recognise it as valid, if it was used as some sort of ‘sit down and shutup’ tool.

Many Catholics, including Popes, have failed to heed their own gospel-what else is new?- the Churches doctrine on Original Sin proves she has the right take on human nature. And just because an excommunication wouldn’t be recognized by God doesn’t mean that a person might not threaten to use the power (or abuse it) anyway. The Church had a great deal more influence on politics and the society at large back then than she does today, right or wrong. As humans, the gospel-the light we’ve received- is having its affect on us, over time, through world history as well as our own individual histories.