Pope

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Acts 15:6-12:
The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter [of circumcizing Gentile Christian converts]. And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, …why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” And all the assembly kept silence…
 
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edwinG:
Hi,
I have trouble with this issue. As Peter is the forerunner and the first Pope, ( I hope I have that right) when did he display his infallibility?
Christ be with you,
Walk in love
edwinG http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Edwin, most non Catholics make way too much out of infallibility. The concept of infallibility stems from Holy Spirit protecting the Church in general and the pope in particular from teaching in error. It does not mean every word uttered by the man is correct, nor does it mean he is sinless. He is human, he makes personal errors, but, he and the Church are protected from teaching errors in the matters of faith and morals. If you read the writings of Luther and Calvin, they taught their own infallibility also. Using the same rational, that they were lead to truth by the Holy Spirit, their error is that Jesus guaranteed this infallibility to the Church through the pope and Apostles, not to individuals other than the Apostles and of course their successors. When they broke away from the Church they invited errors, this is evidenced by the 35,000 different protestant churches, each teaching different doctrine. I don’t intend this to sound “anti-protestant”; I hope it didn’t come off as such. There are requirements for the infallibility of statements by the pope, basically he must be acting in the “seat of Peter” in other words he is acting as the pope not as an individual person, he needs to be teaching on matters of faith or Christian morals, such as interpretation of Scripture, and he needs to state that the teaching is an infallible teaching, it can’t be just his opinion. As an example, when asked about the shroud of Turin, if he believed it was the burial shroud of Jesus, he remarked that he thought it was, this is not an infallible statement since #1 he was not acting as pope, but as an individual, #2 he was not teaching on faith or morals, and #3 did not intend this to be an official statement. This is more an inactive protection, it does not mean the pope has all the answers. I hope this helps.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ be with you,
Tom
 
As Karl Keating points out, even Protestants agree that Peter exercised his infallibility at least twice in writing the two New Testament epistles which bear his name. :yup:
 
HI Mercygate,
Thanks for responding. Maybe I dont understand the word, infallible. I look at my own life which is lived following the Holy Spirit. The sheer joy of seeing God’s hand at work is overpowering. His planning and the truth you have when you realise how over time He has organised this for you. So He helps me and guides me constantly. But I have been fooled and stayed fooled for many months by a revelation which did not come from Him. This is not easy to discern. My point is I trust implicitly the messages in the Holy Scripture, which of course includes Peter’s letters. But being right twice or 10,0000 times doesn’t make one infallible. Look at Job. Look at Peter himself. Even with the anointing of fire from the Holy Spirit he was still prone to mistakes. ie, when satan spoke through him concerning Jesus death, and also when satan had him deny Christ, even though he was warned by Christ himself that it would happen he could not prevent it. We are powerless to evil without Christ and the Holy Spirit but even with Jesus and the Holy Spirit we fail. And why, well if we didn’t we might become puffed up or worse.
Christ be with you,
Walk in love,http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
Here is Dictionary.com has to say about the word infallible:

in·fal·li·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fl-bl)
adj.
Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.
Roman Catholic Church. Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.

I think Tom’s response was very clear and precise. The only thing I would add is, when the pope makes an infallible statement, it is not a statement that is made lightly or on a whim, but after years of study of Scripture by the magisterium. Again on issues of faith and morals. When the Pope made a statement re: the war in Iraqi, that was not statement on faith or morals. When the Pope declared new mysteries added to the Rosary, that is a statement on faith and morals, however that still is not technically an infallible statement. I believe and I could be wrong on this, there have only been two statements of Papal Infalliblity. One was in 1854, concerning Mary being the Immaculate Conception and the other around the turn of the century, regarding Mary’s Assumption into Heaven. Again I could be wrong on how many Papal Infallibity statements there have been. At any rate, both of these statements were made on issues of Faith, from the Chair of Peter and after years of study from Scripture, writings of the Church Fathers and what is Traditional teaching.

Hope this helps.

Sid
 
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edwinG:
HI Mercygate,
Thanks for responding. Maybe I dont understand the word, infallible. . . … Look at Peter himself. Even with the anointing of fire from the Holy Spirit he was still prone to mistakes. ie, when satan spoke through him concerning Jesus death, and also when satan had him deny Christ, even though he was warned by Christ himself that it would happen he could not prevent it. edwinG
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You’re onto something important here, Edwin. The definition of “infallible” in this setting is extremely narrow, and as I am sure you are aware, does not mean “impeccable” or incapable of sin. Search these forums and the home page of Catholic Answers for a concise treatment of the matter (catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp). Papal infallibility applies only to teaching authority in faith and morals. It is a negative assurance – not that the Church will teach correctly, but that she will not teach incorrectly. The doctrine of infallibility is tied in with the indefectibility of the Church, as promised in Jesus’ words about the gates of hell not prevailing against it.

One of the great paradoxes of Christianity is that Peter, such a volatile, “fallible” human person, someone prone to “mistakes” was chosen as the centerpiece of the Apostles and the focal point of the principle of infallibility. But he is also the Apostle who loved and trusted Jesus the most. He is a model of the power of Jesus’ forgiveness. (Chesterton once said of Peter and the papacy that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.) It is a testimony to the Holy Spirit that the Church has managed as well as it has. In her 2000 year history there have been only perhaps three instances in which her infallibility (as defined by the Church) has been challenged, all are answerable.

I always find Luke 5:3, just before the miraculous draft of fishes, compelling:

Getting into one of the boats, which was Simon’s, [Jesus] . . . sat down and taught the people from the boat.
 
Dear edwinG,

I’m just curious. Have you given any thought to joining RCIA classes? If not, have you considered checking out some of the activities of the Church that “bridge” with other religions, such as marriage encounter, cursillo, or centering prayer?

Not that I’m trying to be pushy or anything… 😃

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Dear edwinG,

I’m just curious. Have you given any thought to joining RCIA classes? If not, have you considered checking out some of the activities of the Church that “bridge” with other religions, such as marriage encounter, cursillo, or centering prayer?

Not that I’m trying to be pushy or anything… 😃

Alan
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I live in Thailand and the closest church to me , really quite handy, is a catholic church. I found it as I was walking around the neighbour hood. I went in and applied for a job, they were most happy, and went to look at the church. After that everything was two left feet. Then after that an agent took me to the school about a year later. They did not acknowledge me, but again refused me. In effect this was my third refusal by them. This is the only school I have had any difficulty with. I have taught at several and been very well received both by the teaching staff and the students.
So when I was lonely for christian company and a fellow teacher, both not qualified, I am ( was ) an acupuncturist asked me to go to a church near his place, I went. It turned out to be a pentacostal. Anyhow the preacher , Steve, is full of wisdom. Not much style but very good to listen to. I am happy there. I feel as if this is where Jesus wants me.
Your being pushy is endearing.
Push any time you like
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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