Portestant arguments

[BibleReader]

Valtiel,

RE THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION…

The Immaculate Conception of Mary was necessary, because just as merely LOOKING AT God in the face KILLS ordinary mortals afflicted with the stain of Original Sin, Exodus 33:20, a JOINING OF GOD’S DIVINITY TO THE OVA FROM MARY’S OVARY IN MARY’S WOMB WOULD HAVE SURELY DESTROYED THE ORIGINAL-SIN-TAINTED OVA AND KILLED ORIGINAL-SIN-TAINTED MARY.

You can see the Immaculate Conception gently referred to in Ezekiel 17:5.

The Desert/Wasteland/Wilderness Type in Scripture symbolizes the “not-yet-saved world.”

The OPPOSITE – fertile soil, or a fruitful field, or a seedbed – would NOT NEED SALVATION.

In Ezekiel 17, the Holy Spirit eagle takes the uppermost branch of the cedar tree Christ and plants it in a “fruitful field” and it grows up to become a “vine” with many branches.

Christ said, “I AM THE VINE,” didn’t he?

The “fruitful field” in which the Christ the cedar branch was planted was Mary’s immaculate womb.

 

[MariaG]

posted by Valtiel

Any way I went searching this site for some of their anti catholic responces to some questions and some ant catholic arguments, and some of them are quite hard for me to get around, most of them adress specific points that aren’t adressed in the catholic ansers library…

The Immaculate conception catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary.

There are references in the Bible, a very significant one. Do not belittle and misunderstand the phrase “full of grace” only Jesus was referred to as full of Grace in the Bible besides Mary.

I could go through one by one and show you where many if not all of your questions are answered in the Catholic Answers Library.

If that is not enough go here and by today this book today shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0121.html?L+scstore+hdkn8968ff308130+1114561493

It is by Karl Keating and should cover all of your problems.

**And my advice to you is to stay away from those sites until you are more grounded in the teachings of Christ found in the Catholic Church. **

God Bless,
Maria

 

[BibleReader]

Valtiel,

RE PRAYING TO THE DEAD…

In Luke’s version of the Transfiguration, we are assured that Christ is happy to discuss with the saved dead, Moses and Elijah, things that are going on on Earth. See Luke 9:31.

Christ clearly even talks to ordinary martyrs about events on Earth. Revelation 6:10-11.

These things may not be denied. Scripture REQUIRES that we believe these things, right?

That is how our prayers to the dead would be heard by the dead.

So, Protestant naysayers are simply wrong.

 

[BibleReader]

Valtiel,

Scripture is jammed with assurances that Transubstantiation is a reality.

In Luke 2, what do we see in the town whose name translates “House of Bread”? Do we see bread on a serving dish? No, we see the body of Jesus Himself wrapped-up like a cadaver, in a serving dish called a “manger.”

It’s so strong, it hits one in the face like a baseball bat.

In Exodus 12, the Hebrews eat the actual blemishless lamb with no broken bones, Exodus 12:5, 46. Jesus IS the blemishless lamb, 1 Peter 1:19, with no broken bones, John 19:33, 36.

How could it POSSIBLY be clearer?

There are many more such Real Presence pictures!

 

[vern_humphrey]

BibleReader:

Valtiel,

RE PRAYING TO THE DEAD…

In Luke’s version of the Transfiguration, we are assured that Christ is happy to discuss with the saved dead, Moses and Elijah, things that are going on on Earth. See Luke 9:31.

Christ clearly even talks to ordinary martyrs about events on Earth. Revelation 6:10-11.

These things may not be denied. Scripture REQUIRES that we believe these things, right?

That is how our prayers to the dead would be heard by the dead.

So, Protestant naysayers are simply wrong.

Go to any Protestant church, and you will hear the minister ask the congregation to pray for someone who is ill, or in need of help.

What’s this?!?! The Minister PRAYS to the congregation!! How can that be? And he prays they pray for OTHER people?!?!

Holee Cow!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Now, let’s get serious. “Pray” simply means ask. Both Protestants and Catholic believe that it is possible to benefit someone by praying to God for them.

The very early Christians believed that the dead were still in communion with us. Saint Paul refers to “those who have fallen asleep.” The Apostle’s Creed, from the 2nd Century specifically says we believe in the “Communion of Saints.” That is, we believe all Christians, living and dead (or “asleep”) are part of the whole Church and in communion together.

So I can ask my mother, for example, to pray for me. Even though she passed away almost 40 years ago.

Similarly, I can ask other Christians – especially those of great merit and holiness, whom we are sure are in heaven (Saints) to pray for me.

 

[BibleReader]

Valtiel,

You say, "But nowhere in Scripture did Jesus, the apostles, or any New Testament writer set forth the idea of ‘apostolic succession.’ "

This is simply not true. Look at Mark’s gospel…

13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, **Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,cb(13,4); **13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?cb(13,5); 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:cb(13,6); 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.cb(13,7); 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.cb(13,8); 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.cb(13,10); 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Now, we know in hindsight that the gospel was NOT published to all nations until centuries later.

Yet, Jesus refers to those who will be “delivered-up…beaten…brought before rulers” as “YOU.”

Note how careful Mark is to specify that the YOU being talked to are “Apostles.”

 

[Valtiel]

MariaG:

The Immaculate conception catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

There are references in the Bible, a very significant one. Do not belittle and misunderstand the phrase “full of grace” only Jesus was referred to as full of Grace in the Bible besides Mary.

I could go through one by one and show you where many if not all of your questions are answered in the Catholic Answers Library.

If that is not enough go here and by today this book today shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0121.html?L+scstore+hdkn8968ff308130+1114561493

It is by Karl Keating and should cover all of your problems.

**And my advice to you is to stay away from those sites until you are more grounded in the teachings of Christ found in the Catholic Church. **

God Bless,
Maria

Maybe I should go back and check it out, it’s just that many of these arguments, scriptural references and a few points, are not adressed in these CA articles and then again I only skimed the beginings of each, so…

and yes I have just purchased “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” it’s a good book though it’s kind of superfical in some points in describing things abd sort of flounders around to a point, and the only chapter I find useless is the chapter on the pagan relations charge bible christians use, I would have appreciated some point by point rebutals of it or actual critiquing not some superficial mockery of it…

But other then that it seemed pretty useful, I also purchased “Will Catholics be Left Behind?” witch I am very fond of, very well presented, researched, and argued.

I’m now trying to move towards some of the “history of the catholic chruch” books and some “scriptual support for catholicism” books…

 

[MariaG]

I have found that when you really get down to the nitty gritty, it is not that the Catholic Church is not Biblical (from a Protestant viewpoint) but that they do not agree with the interpretation.

I mean really that link saying the 7 Sacraments are not Biblical? Even in the article you linked it cited Bible verses. They just disagree with the interpretation. Just go look at the Early Church Fathers, many right in the CA tracts and you can see that the Catholic Church teaching is the same as the Early Church.

I’m now trying to move towards some of the “history of the catholic chruch” books and some “scriptual support for catholicism” books…

There is a scripture site with Scripture for the Catholic. Here is one ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM

The Catholic Church is so wonderfully Biblical. As a revert from fundamental circles, I love that I can still “find it in the Bible”.

God Bless,
Maria

p.s. Stop skimming the CA tracts and start reading!!!