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TK421
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Not sure I would be holding Portugal up as an example of anything. It’s an economically depressed country and there are a lot of druggies begging and committing property crime in Lisbon, also you get hassled a lot in public areas by dealers purporting to sell you weed or hash (usually fake).
I’ve been there twice in the last two years and it has its good points, but drugs are a problem, and if they are not putting people in prison it’s probably out of an economic motivation. It also doesn’t make places like Lisbon overall nicer.
I’ve been there twice in the last two years and it has its good points, but drugs are a problem, and if they are not putting people in prison it’s probably out of an economic motivation. It also doesn’t make places like Lisbon overall nicer.
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Jerusha
Guest
It is not drug abuse per se that is the problem. It is the crimes that drug abusers commit, and drug abusers who die as a result of drug abuse. Prosecute those crimes, get medical help for the victims of drug addiction. The US approach to the problem has resulted in the largest per capita incarceration rate in the world. THAT is expensive.
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TK421
Guest
@Jerusha
It is expensive but I’m not sure if cost should be the #1 concern.
Drug abusers are in a state of psychological/emotional/mental/spiritual torment, and while that doesn’t make it okay to use hard drugs, approaching it with a holistic alliance between law enforcement, clinics, and the community has seen very promising results for Portugal. The US desperately needs to rethink its attitudes towards drugs. Incarceration is not the answer. The attraction/addiction of drugs is simply too powerful. People won’t stop doing it because they can’t stop doing it. Not on their own. Not without outside help from a higher power and the community.
The article also points out that the recent US push to legalize marijuana in various states does not parallel what Portugal has been doing. There is an immaturity and lack of planning to what is happening in the US. US legalization has been centered around libertine empowerment and $$$.
Marijuana use is much, much lower in Portugal and people are still treated for it.
It is expensive but I’m not sure if cost should be the #1 concern.
Drug abusers are in a state of psychological/emotional/mental/spiritual torment, and while that doesn’t make it okay to use hard drugs, approaching it with a holistic alliance between law enforcement, clinics, and the community has seen very promising results for Portugal. The US desperately needs to rethink its attitudes towards drugs. Incarceration is not the answer. The attraction/addiction of drugs is simply too powerful. People won’t stop doing it because they can’t stop doing it. Not on their own. Not without outside help from a higher power and the community.
The article also points out that the recent US push to legalize marijuana in various states does not parallel what Portugal has been doing. There is an immaturity and lack of planning to what is happening in the US. US legalization has been centered around libertine empowerment and $$$.
Marijuana use is much, much lower in Portugal and people are still treated for it.
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michaelArc
Guest
I visited friends who live in Lisbon last year. I completely agree with your assessment. It’s near impossible to walk anywhere in the historiic area without being asked if I want to buy drugs.
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TK421
Guest
@michaelArc
So you visited Portugal for a week or so and you decided it is drug-infested? Did you thoroughly tour the country and assess drug use in the population? Were you mostly just in one specific area? I mean, I couldn’t assess the US if I spent all my time in southcentral Chicago. So is the data just made up because there were some bums in your area with drugs?
I don’t see a connection between being economically depressed and drug use. The $$$ in Europe has been centered in the northwestern half for the past 100-500 years for a variety of reasons, perhaps namely because eastern & southern Europeans have been a human shield from Ottoman Turks and other invaders. It could focus on others things besides survival. The Iberian peninsula has also had less $$$ for a long time. That goes back much further than 2001.
So you visited Portugal for a week or so and you decided it is drug-infested? Did you thoroughly tour the country and assess drug use in the population? Were you mostly just in one specific area? I mean, I couldn’t assess the US if I spent all my time in southcentral Chicago. So is the data just made up because there were some bums in your area with drugs?
I don’t see a connection between being economically depressed and drug use. The $$$ in Europe has been centered in the northwestern half for the past 100-500 years for a variety of reasons, perhaps namely because eastern & southern Europeans have been a human shield from Ottoman Turks and other invaders. It could focus on others things besides survival. The Iberian peninsula has also had less $$$ for a long time. That goes back much further than 2001.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m not saying the US approach is great either. I have a friend who is a “drug court” judge and works really hard to get people into treatment, which seems to me to be the way to go. Unfortunately, the drug problem in US particularly with opiates has reached epic proportions to the point where there’s a scarcity of treatment options, especially for people who lack funds. Several of my friends have lost immediate family members to heroin recently and before that we had same issues with meth and before that crack so I am not saying things are rosy by any means.
Unfortunately, people read these articles about decriminalization in Europe and think that sounds like a paradise where everybody gets the help they need and so forth. The reality when you actually visit some of these places looks a bit different and not so pleasant. Also, relatively few people in US get busted for pot anymore unless they are carrying a large amount of it around to sell or doing some other criminal thing in addition to just having some pot. It’s even legal in a couple of places.
Unfortunately, people read these articles about decriminalization in Europe and think that sounds like a paradise where everybody gets the help they need and so forth. The reality when you actually visit some of these places looks a bit different and not so pleasant. Also, relatively few people in US get busted for pot anymore unless they are carrying a large amount of it around to sell or doing some other criminal thing in addition to just having some pot. It’s even legal in a couple of places.
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TK421
Guest
I"m not a fan of these anecdotals. You can get a drastically different opinion hanging out on a few select city blocks or among a certain group of people. It doesn’t necessarily reflect the Portuguese general population. I would rather see convincing evidence that the data is corrupt.
It doesn’t seem surprising that bums selling drugs would all gather in a historic district where tourists go. Though it would be nice if the police could do something about it.
It doesn’t seem surprising that bums selling drugs would all gather in a historic district where tourists go. Though it would be nice if the police could do something about it.
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HarryStotle
Guest
Isn’t proposing Portugal as a model of drug legalization also verging on anecdotal?I"m not a fan of these anecdotals. You can get a drastically different opinion hanging out on a few select city blocks or among a certain group of people. I would rather see convincing evidence that the data is corrupt.
It doesn’t seem surprising that bums selling drugs would all gather in a historic district where tourists go. Though it would be nice if the police could do something about it.
I understand that there is “data” to bolster your proposal, but a sample size of one country would appear very selective. Sampling bias would seem an issue any time the selection is down to one source for the data.
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michaelArc
Guest
I also mentioned my friends live in Lisbon and they are Portuguese locals. Since I live in The Netherlands, drugs were a topic of discussion. They warned me about the nuisance and it was glaringly obvious, especially when compared to every other European captital that I visited.
I did visit the country side, but that’s really comparing apples to oranges. My comments are in reference to Lisbon.
I did visit the country side, but that’s really comparing apples to oranges. My comments are in reference to Lisbon.
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TK421
Guest
@HarryStotle
Sort of. It’s a lot better than,“I spent a week in Lisbon and some guys tried to sell me pot while I was there”.
I don’t want to simplify social ills. I’m not a believer in easy fixes. Not on violent crime or drugs or anything else. There is a complicated formula in making it all work. Costa Rica has decriminalized drugs but it hasn’t been successful in reducing drug addiction. But there are many factors that could all impact why that is. Costa Rica hasn’t been as holistic in dealing with the problem as Portugal has. A lot of the politics behind the change were rooted in a libertine desire to be free of accountability by the government, and not a lot of thought or planning was put into it. Portugal has built a well-oiled alliance between law enforcement, treatment centers, and community support, as well as taking away the ostracization/taboo of people who are suffering from addiction.
So I think it is a good foundation for adopting something similar over time. And the US has something Portugal doesn’t: $$$.
Sort of. It’s a lot better than,“I spent a week in Lisbon and some guys tried to sell me pot while I was there”.
I don’t want to simplify social ills. I’m not a believer in easy fixes. Not on violent crime or drugs or anything else. There is a complicated formula in making it all work. Costa Rica has decriminalized drugs but it hasn’t been successful in reducing drug addiction. But there are many factors that could all impact why that is. Costa Rica hasn’t been as holistic in dealing with the problem as Portugal has. A lot of the politics behind the change were rooted in a libertine desire to be free of accountability by the government, and not a lot of thought or planning was put into it. Portugal has built a well-oiled alliance between law enforcement, treatment centers, and community support, as well as taking away the ostracization/taboo of people who are suffering from addiction.
So I think it is a good foundation for adopting something similar over time. And the US has something Portugal doesn’t: $$$.
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Jerusha
Guest
LOL “{Incarceration} is expensive but I’m not sure if cost should be the #1 concern.” Fully aware-- addressed to judgmental idiots.
Many times, incarceration is only warehousing people to later release them to do the same thing over again, haunted by the thought that they are worthless unemployable felons.
The experimental rehabilitation programs in many jails prevent re-incarceration. My son was a suicidal re-offender in this county. Upon the judge’s advice, I sent him to a city that had such a program. Faced with the horror of homelessness, he got into trouble again, spent months in a psych unit, and now is much improved. He did get into trouble last week for trying to smoke lettuce, but such is the consequence of self-imposed boredom.
The revolving door is expensive. An emphasis on rehabilitation is less expensive. A friend who works in corrections in this state has researched that city’s program, and says it is excellent.
Many times, incarceration is only warehousing people to later release them to do the same thing over again, haunted by the thought that they are worthless unemployable felons.
The experimental rehabilitation programs in many jails prevent re-incarceration. My son was a suicidal re-offender in this county. Upon the judge’s advice, I sent him to a city that had such a program. Faced with the horror of homelessness, he got into trouble again, spent months in a psych unit, and now is much improved. He did get into trouble last week for trying to smoke lettuce, but such is the consequence of self-imposed boredom.
The revolving door is expensive. An emphasis on rehabilitation is less expensive. A friend who works in corrections in this state has researched that city’s program, and says it is excellent.
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TK421
Guest
That’s good. I’m sorry about your son. I will include him in my petitions today.
It’s hard to find a good, empathetic, scientific approach to the drug problem. Conservative views are laced with judgment and the unrealistic belief you can beat it out of a person. But so often the other side is wrapped up on libertine politics: wanting to avoid the problem entirely or swallow pseudoscience propaganda that says drugs aren’t really bad.
I like how Portugal treats drugs like the destructive force they are, but without creating a rotating door of incarceration and dooming people to their past. There needs to be a healthy acceptance of their destructive power without the American conservative tendency to beat somebody while they are already on the ground.
It’s hard to find a good, empathetic, scientific approach to the drug problem. Conservative views are laced with judgment and the unrealistic belief you can beat it out of a person. But so often the other side is wrapped up on libertine politics: wanting to avoid the problem entirely or swallow pseudoscience propaganda that says drugs aren’t really bad.
I like how Portugal treats drugs like the destructive force they are, but without creating a rotating door of incarceration and dooming people to their past. There needs to be a healthy acceptance of their destructive power without the American conservative tendency to beat somebody while they are already on the ground.
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whyeyeman
Guest
I would like to point out that drugs were de-facto decriminalised already at the time this alleged “decriminalisation” happened. Therefore one would not have expected to see any change in drug use after the event anyway.
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Seeksadvice
Guest
Drug user deaths are a self-correcting problem.
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Jerusha
Guest
Drug users flirt with suicide. It is suicidal behavior. We have a responsibility to prevent suicide, not facilitate it.
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commenter
Guest
- The problem in the US is why is there such an insatiable demand. That likely is true in Western Europe too.
- The US, and perhaps Europe, has relied exclusively on government action of various kinds to solve this problem. The article seems to assume this also. Either it is the government arresting, or the government funding treatment alternatives, or a combination of government interventions. Is government the only thing that can take any kind of action?
- Incarceration rates for the US are often cited as high. Keep in mind: we have a different kind of society, a different mix of people, it may not be possible to reduce prisons that much.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Life is difficult. Drugs make you feel better, at least in the short term. Many people will use whatever drugs, legal or illegal, are readily available to them, so they can feel good. If the drug is addictive, then they get hooked and can’t easily stop using and need more and more.The problem in the US is why is there such an insatiable demand. That likely is true in Western Europe too.
Much of the demand is dictated by availability. When heroin is available right in your suburban high school for cheap, more people use than when you had to get a car, drive to the worst part of town, locate a dealer and pay a large amount of money to get any. I have friends who were scared off the junkie life by almost getting shot trying to cop back in the day.
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