Possibly my last question for a while

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Seems like most atheists’ views are mainly based on the assumption that if some parts of the Bible contradict others, none of it is true, not taking into account years of events between actual happendins and writings, etc. However, one article I found does raise an interesting point: forum.30ce.com/messages/68.html

So I guess my question to you guys is: did either Jesus or Kephas/Peter know Greek at the time He supposedly said “upon this rock,” etc.?

EDIT: I’m reading some replies to the article now. what about this:
Yes, Yeshua, a carpenter from the Galilee, spoke Aramaic, a form of Hebrew. He didn’t speak Greek. He wrote no text that was showed up in later gospels. Some of what is attributed to him could not have been written by a witness because there were no witnesses (his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, for example, when he was to have been alone while the disciples slept)."
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I don’t know if Jesus and the Apostles knew Greek or not. I’m sure some here can provide a better answer to that. Certainly Greek was in wide use at the time, as evidenced by the widespread use of the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures which had been completed a century or so before Christ.

It is reasonably certain that Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic. So when Jesus changed Simon’s name he was saying “you are kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church.”
 
But then why is it translated as “Peter” and “rock?” Isn’t it a play on the words “petros” and the name “Peter?”
 
But then why is it translated as “Peter” and “rock?” Isn’t it a play on the words “petros” and the name “Peter?”
It’s translated that way in English! If you read the bible in French, it says “You are pierre, and on this pierre, I will build my church,” only in French … “tu es pierre…”
 
Okay…but why wouldn’t He say “upon you I will build my church?” Is that just how Hebrew grammar works or something?

Delving into the Greek translation here: jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Scr/utr.htm

Sure, this could all be Protestant “apologetics” that try to justify their split, but I’d like it if someone could point out why - and please read the whole article, though you don’t have to.
 
Okay…but why wouldn’t He say “upon you I will build my church?” Is that just how Hebrew grammar works or something?/QUOTE

But He did say upon you. He said your name is rock and upon this rock I will build my Church.
 
In John 1:42 Jesus said:
“So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter).

(Cephas is the Greek rendition of the word “kephas,” which is Aramaic for ‘Rock’)

In the Gospel of John we see that Jesus is saying that Simon ‘will be’ called Cephas, and this is accomplished in the Gospel of Matthew when they are near Cesaria Phillipi.
Cesaria Phillipi is important because it is near there a large rock cliff with a temple to the Greek God Pan, and Jesus could have been using this as his back drop when he changed Simon’s name to Peter.

But as important as the name “rock” is in this passage, the “keys” also have to be included in this conversation.

There is an allusion to a room in the Temple where the great key was kept; this room was called Kephas, because the key was placed in a recess closed by a stone.
(Also it could have been a play on the name of the High Priest at the time “Caiaphas” with Jesus saying that Simon would be his “high priest”)

Scott Hahn writes in his bible study on the covenant:

As Solomon appointed 12 officers to rule administer his kingdom (see 1 Kings 4:7), Jesus appoints His 12 Apostles to positions of leadership in His kingdom (see Matthew 19:28).

He appoints, one, Simon, to a special post, changing his name to Peter. Peter is from the Greek Petros, which means “rock.” Jesus tells him, “On this rock I will build my Church” (see Matthew 16:18).

This may be a reference to Solomon, who built the Temple, the house of God, on a large foundation stone (see Isaiah 28:16).

Earlier, Jesus had made another reference to Solomon and the rock - saying that people who live by His new law are like “a wise man who built his house on rock.” Solomon was known for his wisdom (see 1 Kings 3:10-12) and built the Temple on a rock (see 1 Kings 5:17; 7:10).

My Church is the name that Jesus gives to the Kingdom He has come to announce.

And Jesus gives Peter supreme authority in His Kingdom, His Church. He gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven” and the powers to “bind and loose.”

The only other place in Scripture where such “keys” are mentioned is in a passage about the Davidic kingdom found in a prophecy from Isaiah (see Isaiah 22:15-24).

There, Isaiah prophesies God’s transfer of “the key of the House of David” from a corrupt “master of the palace” named Shebna to a righteous servant, Eliakin. Of Eliakin, the prophet says:

He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the House of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder - when he opens, no one shall shut; when he shuts, no one shall open.

This sounds a lot like what Jesus says to Peter:

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

In Davidic Kingdom, the king appointed, in effect, a prime minister to handle the day-to-day affairs of the Kingdom. He was called the royal “vizier” or “major-domo,” the “superintendent” or “master of the palace.” He is considered, as Isaiah said, to be “a father to the inhabitants” of the Kingdom (see 1 Kings 4:1-6; 16:9; 18:3; 2 Kings 15:5; 18:18,37; 19:2; Isaiah 22:22).

Jesus appoints Peter to be “prime minister” of the restored Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus proclaimed, the Church He called His own.

The “keys” are a symbol of the King’s power, authority, and control (see also Revelation 22:16; 3:7; 1:8).

Jesus’ reference to “binding” and “loosing” alludes to the authority of rabbis in Jesus’ time. The rabbis had the power to make “binding” and “loosing” decisions about the interpretation and enforcement of the Law - they could declare what is permitted and what is not permitted according to the Law.

As prime minister of the Kingdom, rock of the Church, Peter is, in effect, the chief rabbi, with ultimate teaching authority.

As for the rest of the article, the writer holds a ‘camelot’ view of the early church which is totally unsupported by any early Christian documentation. All the early Christian writings point to an organized church, with Peter as the Prime Apostle in charge of it. In fact in Acts chapter 15 we see a visible church magesterium making a decision about circumcision which the whole church will have to abide by.
 
It’s translated that way in English! If you read the bible in French, it says “You are pierre, and on this pierre, I will build my church,” only in French … “tu es pierre…”
 
…this is like when folks say…'gee, a Latin mass…" my question is …does God know Latin…I still have my missal with the prayers on the left of the page in Latin and on the right in English.nice high class english also…all of the various attacks against Catholic Christianity have been raised before…Voltaire,Nietzsche,Jung…all pushing for moral nihilism in the extreme…loosen up…we are just electronic bleeps…say your piece and dont take attacks so personal…with the 4th of July coming again we should dwell on how so many gave their lives so we can chat freely like this without a dreaded 3 am knock on the door from the secret police…amen and amen…the forum staff are to be complimented for their tolerance and patience…Nino
 
@runandsew:

Thanks for the long post. I wasn’t able to find any online translators that knew what “kephas” meant, but I guess I’ll take your word for it.
 
Okay…but why wouldn’t He say “upon you I will build my church?” Is that just how Hebrew grammar works or something?
Well, Jesus, speaking Aramaic, said, ‘You are kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church’. I think he wanted to use kepha twice to make the play on words, which is a pretty common literary device in the NT.

After that, the apostles began to refer to Simon as Kepha or “Cephas” since Jesus had really changed his name.
 
Okay…but why wouldn’t He say “upon you I will build my church?” Is that just how Hebrew grammar works or something?

.
Probably because “you” wouldn’t have identified absolutely which of the apostles He was referring to. His use of “kepha”, made it very clear that it could refer only to the one whose name He had just changed to “kepha” (Simon, son of Jonah).

Nita
 
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