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dans0622
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I know of no official statement of any sort directing the common faithful to use, or not use, a phrase such as “I know my marriage is valid.”… Ok, so show where you can use the term “knowledge” as in I have True Knowledge that my sacrament (marriage) is valid? If this were the case, there would not be so many annulments. One could simply find out the validity of their sacrament. But yet, many who have the Presumption of validity do so wrongly, finding out later, after the divorce and annulment.
…
Since you are a Canon lawyer and have given the answer that it is a “rule that should not be set in stone” kindly direct me to how I can find out if my marriage is valid?
As I have been saying “presumption of validity” is a legal concept. Contracts, when entered into in accord with the law, are presumed to be valid by the law. This applies to all contracts. Just because the law uses the term “presumption” doesn’t mean I have to remain in that box. I’m not going to say, for example, “Well, I can only presume that this is my house.” It is my house. That is how I look at it. If you want to refrain from statements expressing certitude about your marriage, that’s ok.
You are putting your finger on a problem: there are many declarations of nullity and so this naturally causes some to wonder whether or not their own contract is valid. It doesn’t have to be that way, though. Just because I work on marriage after marriage that is eventually declared invalid, I know for a fact that I was not impeded. I know for a fact that I observed canonical form. I know for a fact that my consent was appropriate. I know all of these things with equal certainty regarding my wife.
Where can you find out if your marriage is valid? I’m not sure…but I know that you *can’t *go to a Tribunal to get that answer and this is not due to the divorce “requirement.” The question before a Tribunal in a marriage case takes the following form: “has the marriage of A and B been proven to be invalid?” The answer is either “yes” or “no.”
If the answer is “no”, that is not the same as saying “the marriage of A and B is valid.” The marriage, in the law and for the Judge, retains its presumption of validity: there is no change in that regard.
In other words, there is no such thing as a “declaration of validity.”
Dan
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Xantippe
Guest
Just the investigation process alone could nuke a marriage, no matter how validly entered into.I am not sure what your point is.
Ok, so show where you can use the term “knowledge” as in I have True Knowledge that my sacrament (marriage) is valid? If this were the case, there would not be so many annulments. One could simply find out the validity of their sacrament. But yet, many who have the Presumption of validity do so wrongly, finding out later, after the divorce and annulment.
My main points are that
Since you are a Canon lawyer and have given the answer that it is a “rule that should not be set in stone” kindly direct me to how I can find out if my marriage is valid?
- We cannot tell the OP what they wish to know.
- The Church will not attempt to help the OP find out the validity of the sacrament until a divorce is had.
- The Church has in effect given undo power to the state in regards to this sacrament. It is the ONLY sacrament the Church requires something from the state to investigate.
There’s a reason they do autopsies on corpses, not live people…
It would be scientifically interesting and more informative to be able to do the same stuff to a live person, but it would kill the patient every time.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
That is a pretty good explanation actually. Except… If I have a fear that I am not healthy, I can go to a doctor and have tests done. I don’t need to be told by the hospital, “expire, get a death certificate from the state, and then we will look for the tumor.” I would think there would also be an opportunity to heal if the Church could in fact see. Or even cared to look.Just the investigation process alone could nuke a marriage, no matter how validly entered into.
There’s a reason they do autopsies on corpses, not live people…
It would be scientifically interesting and more informative to be able to do the same stuff to a live person, but it would kill the patient every time.
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Xantippe
Guest
I’d say the question at hand is “Is there a live patient here?” which makes the requirement for a death certificate not unreasonable.That is a pretty good explanation actually. Except… If I have a fear that I am not healthy, I can go to a doctor and have tests done. I don’t need to be told by the hospital, “expire, get a death certificate from the state, and then we will look for the tumor.” I would think there would also be an opportunity to heal if the Church could in fact see. Or even cared to look.
The annulment process is not a treatment program for struggling marriages.
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IrishAm
Guest
Not so. At least, not in any US diocese of which I am familiar (which, of course, doesn’t mean there aren’t diocese out there in which that is absolutely the case!).The priest also told me that marriage tribunals won’t even LOOK at your case if you haven’t already been civilly divorced for a year+.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
No, of course not. But no doubt this is an illogical process with regards to the sacrament of marriage. We live in a time where marriage is defined differently and the Church is under fire. We live in a time where are Church is actually looking at “marriage” and deciding if Jesus was wrong.I’d say the question at hand is “Is there a live patient here?” which makes the requirement for a death certificate not unreasonable.
The annulment process is not a treatment program for struggling marriages.
Much like another subject we have debated, this is a unique process and position for the Church. It does not play by the same rules other sacraments play by. Why is that?
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styrgwillidar
Guest
I’ve never really liked analogies.That is a pretty good explanation actually. Except… If I have a fear that I am not healthy, I can go to a doctor and have tests done. I don’t need to be told by the hospital, “expire, get a death certificate from the state, and then we will look for the tumor.” I would think there would also be an opportunity to heal if the Church could in fact see. Or even cared to look.
A married couple living together, and one files for a declaration of nullity. Ok. They are willing to stay with the marriage if it’s declared valid and work on it. But they’re in the position where – if the Church says it’s invalid, I’m outtta here!!! Puts the Church in the position of being the final nudge out the door. Don’t think I like that idea.
If a person is willing to stay if the Church declares it valid— then is there truly an irreconcilable split? Why not just assume the marriage is valid since they’re willing to stay in it and make it better? Shouldn’t, they instead focus their energies on working on improving marriage, upholding their vows? Don’t think I’d want to be in a marriage with the other person looking to get out.
Perhaps, a divorce shouldn’t be a requirement but a physical separation that’s lasted some significant (1yr maybe?) amount of time.
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Xantippe
Guest
Right.I’ve never really liked analogies.
A married couple living together, and one files for a declaration of nullity. Ok. They are willing to stay with the marriage if it’s declared valid and work on it. But they’re in the position where – if the Church says it’s invalid, I’m outtta here!!! Puts the Church in the position of being the final nudge out the door. Don’t think I like that idea.
**Right. Plus, one or both of them are going to be spending the 1-10 years that it takes to get an answer putting together the case that the marriage is invalid rather than trying to be the best possible spouse and parent that they can be. (Think of Henry VIII and his first wife–he was not an ideal husband to her during the time he was impatiently waiting for an annulment to come through.)
If the Church were to operate like that, there would have to be a much faster annulment process–one year maximum at most, and even that would be practically intolerable for a couple living under the same roof. Remember, marital relations would probably be suspended at that point.
It would also make a spouse that opposed the annulment understandably very, very angry with the Church.
**
If a person is willing to stay if the Church declares it valid— then is there truly an irreconcilable split? Why not just assume the marriage is valid since they’re willing to stay in it and make it better? Shouldn’t, they instead focus their energies on working on improving marriage, upholding their vows? Don’t think I’d want to be in a marriage with the other person looking to get out.
Right.
Perhaps, a divorce shouldn’t be a requirement but a physical separation that’s lasted some significant (1yr maybe?) amount of time.
That’s not crazy.
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Xantippe
Guest
Also, if a couple is apparently living together under one roof in relative peace raising their children together, they get a letter from a tribunal and then they divorce, it’s a very bad witness to both Protestants, other Catholics and to their own kids.
All of those parties (Protestants, Catholics and the kids) are going to see the Church as breaking up a happy home.
All of those parties (Protestants, Catholics and the kids) are going to see the Church as breaking up a happy home.
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Loly_Maria
Guest
That is a really harmful thing to say to someone who is in an emotionally abusive relationship. Victims don’t cause abuse.If your husband seems emotionally abusive, he is most likely reacting to the terrible position you have put your entire family in. Stop it. May I suggest that you start being grateful for everything he has done for you in spite of your incredible inability to make a decision and stick with it?
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aicirt
Guest
Just some thoughts: divorce isn’t easy. He’s the father of your children so he’ll always be a part of your life. He’ll be coming for visitation. Your life will be structured around that. He will be at all major events involving the kids. You will want child support and, hopefully, if will be paid on time so you don’t have to go into debt. You may have to work which means child care.
Now for your social life. Do you think you would want another man acting as a stand-in Dad to your kids when they already have a father? Do you see yourself blending a family with your children and the new hubby’s kids? Realize too that his children come first in money matters. This can get very tricky when the kids go to college and tuition must be paid.
Telling what kind of emotional abuse you experience would be helpful.
Remember too that the only one who can make you happy is you. Not easy, but true.
Now for your social life. Do you think you would want another man acting as a stand-in Dad to your kids when they already have a father? Do you see yourself blending a family with your children and the new hubby’s kids? Realize too that his children come first in money matters. This can get very tricky when the kids go to college and tuition must be paid.
Telling what kind of emotional abuse you experience would be helpful.
Remember too that the only one who can make you happy is you. Not easy, but true.
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dans0622
Guest
Hello,… A married couple living together, and one files for a declaration of nullity. Ok. They are willing to stay with the marriage if it’s declared valid and work on it. But they’re in the position where – if the Church says it’s invalid, I’m outtta here!!! Puts the Church in the position of being the final nudge out the door. Don’t think I like that idea.
If a person is willing to stay if the Church declares it valid— then is there truly an irreconcilable split? Why not just assume the marriage is valid since they’re willing to stay in it and make it better? Shouldn’t, they instead focus their energies on working on improving marriage, upholding their vows? …
To be clear, a Church tribunal would never declare a marriage valid. That being said, I understand your overall point.
In practice, I have yet to hear about a person wanting a Tribunal to investigate his/her marriage before there was at least a separation. Of course, most of the time, he/she is already in another relationship, if not another civil union.
Dan
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TheDoctor
Guest
For those who want to know why this is so, an old but accurate answer:We cannot make that distinction, and unfortunately the Church has given undue power to the state over her own sacraments. There is no way for a civilly married Catholic to know their marriage is valid. The Church requires you to obtain permission from the state to investigate Her own sacrament!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=9420
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Thanks, yes it was poorly worded. Probably should have said something along the lines of-- if the church provides a negative response to a request for a declaration of nullity–Hello,
To be clear, a Church tribunal would never declare a marriage valid. That being said, I understand your overall point.
In practice, I have yet to hear about a person wanting a Tribunal to investigate his/her marriage before there was at least a separation. Of course, most of the time, he/she is already in another relationship, if not another civil union.
Dan
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