Practical Justification Question 2

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Ok, I asked this in the “Miscellaneous” forum, and it got some discussion, but I realized that there was apparently the need for more doctrinal discussion implicit in the question. I actually tried to avoid it, but now I’ll ask it here. Here’s the question:

Ok, with that said, let me say that I come from a Calvinist background (I’m Reformed Presbyterian) and don’t believe the doctrine of “eternal security” and my denomination rejects the “carnal Christian” heresy. So, when I say “justified by faith alone” I don’t mean what is meant by those two things. I mean that man is counted righteous in the eyes of God by his faith in Christ (ie. Luke 7:50 “And He said to the woman, ’ Your faith has saved you; go in peace.’”) And that the faith that saves a man is a living faith, and our confidence is in the God we fear and trust, and knowing He loves us, He will definantly confirm us to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:8).

So, as a Catholic, what do you believe that’s different than what I believe? Obviously, you don’t believe that anyone is saved by “Faith Alone” because you say that rightousness is infused “given” to a person, and not merely imputed to a person. But how does that play out differently in your life and your prayers? Like, I pray to the effect that I know God has given me faith and delivered me from my sins, and that He would forgive me of my shortcomings and look to the righteousness of Christ accounted to me, rather than to my sinfulness, and have mercy and grant me repentance. And it’s the indwelling Holy Spirit of God that has given me life (regeneration) and works in me to will that which is pleasing to God.

So, I’m just wondering, like I said above, how do Catholics practically understand this “infused righteousness” different than the Calvinist’s “imputed righteousntess?”
 
Now, I should also add a bit about Regeneration to perhaps help you understand what I believe is the Reformed equivalent to the Roman “Infused Righteousness” ideal. Not that it’s the in all ways the equivalent, but it’s how we say God’s Spirit dwells in us and how we receive grace, poured into us.

For an excellent treatment of the Reformed doctrine of Justification, I would recommend the book by John Murray “Redemption Accomplished and Applied.” It’s about 180 pages and he does an excellent job of outlining, point by point, Christ’s accomplishing of Redemption for His elect, and it’s application to them in time. Let it suffice to say, that regeneration, in the Reformed sense, is the act of God making a person who is called to Christ able and eager to answer that call. This isn’t like the predominant Evangelical or typical Protestant message, it has at it’s heart man’s hatred towards God and God’s giving them the new heart to love Him. Some Scriptures:
John 3 & 6:44,65
Exekiel 36:26
Romans 8:8

** In Murray’s words, which contain the same idea as the Westminster Confession of Faith, “God’s call, since it is effectual, carries with it the operative grace whereby the person called is enabled to answer the call and to embrace Jesus Christ as He is freely offered in the Gospel. … And that grace is the grace of regeneration.” **

Maybe that will direct things easier :yup:
 
Rob -

I hope my response is not too simplistic to address your question. As a cradle Catholic, my understanding of the Catholic position on justification is that we are saved by grace through faith. Jesus said “If you love me, you will keep my commandments,” and he summarized his commandments in the two great commandments (with which I’m sure you are familiar). So we must love God above all things and our neighbor as ourself. With respect to faith, James expressed the Catholic position best in writing “faith without works is dead” (James 2: 26). That is, if we have faith in Christ, our faith will be evident in our works; not that we are perfect, but that we make the attempt to be Christ in the world. That is our faith, and I hope this helps.🙂
 
I don’t have much time to answer this question, but let me say that the Bible does make it perfectly clear that you are not justified by faith alone. **James 2:24 **You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. It does not get any more cut and dry then that.

Justification is all about Sonship. We are His children, and being his children we have family chores that are just a part of our position in Christ. If I woke my son up in the morning and told him to get up and get himself ready for school, and if he just rolled over and said “I believe you dad.” Well, that is fine son that you believe me but you still need to get up and get ready. I have faith dad! That’s great son but you have 2 seconds to get up!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Grace alone saves! We are saved by grace alone through faith, faith being the instrument. And actually faith is a gift from God, and we are to take that divine gift and act upon it.

The Bible can be and is used to create any doctrine a person wants. I can get the Bible to sound as if you are saved by faith alone, or baptism alone, or repentance alone, or works alone, confession alone, etc etc. But in all truth all those play a big part in our salvation. And to create a systematic doctrine of one of those things alone is to short change ourselves from God’s awesome graces!

And the sacraments that God gives us are not works that we do but are graces that we receive. Big difference!
 
In my experience, the key difference is in the relationship between faith and works as seen from a reformed vs. Catholic perspective. The Reformed tend to view the relationship as a one-way street: God elects to save person A, then God injects person A with faith, then person A acts on that faith, performing good works. If the person never gets to the third step (the thief on the cross is the ubiquitous example), that doesn’t prevent their being saved, therefore, the third step is not necessary.

The Catholic view is that faith and works are related in a sort of feedback loop: faith inspires works, works strengthen faith. When the bible says faith is a gift, it is sort of like athletic abilities (not coincidentally one of Paul’s favorite analogies). Barry Bonds was given great athletic gifts, but he is where he is today because they were developed to their full potential. He did that through exercise, discipline, and study of the game. Christians realize their faith potential by exercise (good works), discipline (suffering) and study (“hearing” the word). The idea we are saved by faith apart from works is like saying Bonds hit 700 homers by his gift, and not by anything that he did. Bonds, if he’s smart, will give all the credit to God for his achievements, because God gave him the gifts he has. I could have invested as much time and effort in exercise, discipline and study, and would never have achieved 700 home runs in the majors - I don’t have the gift (sadly!).
 
Hello Reformed Rob,

We have just had quite the discussion on faith and Justification.
Have you read the thread comparing Jesus teaching on what we must do to share eternal life with St. Paul’ writings? Please take a look at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=14936

I think you will enjoy it. Please take a look and jump in on the discussion if you like.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
I think too many Catholics take much “pop Evangelicalism” as being the real teaching of authentic Evangelical and Reformed Theology. Yes there are some “Evangelicals” that say once you have “Faith” and trust Jesus as your Lord and Saviour then you can do what you please. This is NOT what the Reformed and Evangelical teaching says. What is the real teaching is that the individual comes to faith by Regeneration in which God the Holy Spirit moves a person to believe who would otherwise be lost, it is not something we will, it is solely by Grace making the will willing. By Regeneration we are moved by Grace to trusting Faith in Christ and what He did for us and by this we are Justified, we are imputed with Christ’s righteossness and declared by God to be righteouss, not by anything we do, but solely on the merits of Christ. Once we are Justified the Holy Spirit begins the process of Sanctification in which we are more conformed to Christ and do good works and die to sin daily. Our good works do not save us but are there as proof that we are genuinely saved. God does reward our good works but our good works can never be sufficient or enough to save us. If we see someone who bears no fruit IE good works, still living a sinful life, not following Christ’s example or teaching not trying at least to struggle to live a Godly life, and still claims to be a “saved” Christian then we may wonder if such a person is truly a Christian. As John Calvin so aptly put it “Faith alone Saves, but the Faith that Saves is not alone.” In Christ, jurist12
 
Ok, thanks for the posts. I’ll address any questions that have been asked at a later time.

I usually don’t ask a question unless I already have a potential answer, or at least an angle to go at answering it.

It seems to me that a potential difference would be a stronger fear of God. Let me briefly explain.

One passage that comes to mind is Matthew 25:31-46. Of course, you could perhaps have different perspectives on this, but if you take Christ’s teachings “seriously” then you would have an awesome motivation to be charitable to others and deny yourself certain luxuries in the world to be able to provide basic necessities for those less fortunate. Of course, other good works are tied up in that, but you get what I’m saying I’m sure. Like wow, “God, if I’m not doing what Christ says here, can I still enter into your Kingdom?”

Don’t misunderstand me here> I’m not meaning to imply taking anything away from God’s grace motivating us, but isn’t Matthew 25 inspired Scripture?

I should also say with regard to this, obviously there would be a fear and need for speedy repentance of mortal sin.

Not that as a Reformed guy I don’t desire to hate sin in my life pray like Daniel in Daniel 9, and want to do good works here on earth- but I’m just saying that maybe the Catholic’s potential understanding of this is more fearful, yet in some way still leads us to Christ’s easy yoke and light burden that He would have us to perceive to have received from Him.
 
“The Catholic view is that faith and works are related in a sort of feedback loop: faith inspires works, works strengthen faith. When the bible says faith is a gift, it is sort of like athletic abilities (not coincidentally one of Paul’s favorite analogies). Barry Bonds was given great athletic gifts, but he is where he is today because they were developed to their full potential. He did that through exercise, discipline, and study of the game. Christians realize their faith potential by exercise (good works), discipline (suffering) and study (“hearing” the word). The idea we are saved by faith apart from works is like saying Bonds hit 700 homers by his gift, and not by anything that he did. Bonds, if he’s smart, will give all the credit to God for his achievements, because God gave him the gifts he has. I could have invested as much time and effort in exercise, discipline and study, and would never have achieved 700 home runs in the majors - I don’t have the gift (sadly)”

Steve, your analogy about athletic ability is about the best and most easily understood explaination about justification and works that I have EVER heard. Imputation, infusion and the like just seem to confuse me. Your approach is direct and makes sense. Thank you for such an eloquent description. Obviously God has touched your heart in such a way to help us all. And actually it often seems to be a contest between us Catholica and Protestants to bend words and wring out understanding to support the position we have, and regardless of proofs we won’t change our position. As I have said on this forum before, all we can do is to explain and it is the Holy Spirit’s responsibility to cause the change in hearts.

Bless you
 
Having come from a Reformed Presbyterian background,I have given this issue considerable thought. I am presently in RCIA.

I am assuming that by Reformed Presbyterian we are referring to those who would strictly follow Calvin and the Westminster Standards.

Utlimately, I have concluded that much of this debate boils down to semantics. There is much more agreement then some would care to admit.

REFORMED VIEW FOR SALVATION
First step - Grace (present in each step)
Second step - Election
Third step - Justification (strictly forensic in nature)
Fourth step - Adoption/Sanctification

Love/Works is viewed as a result of sanctification. Views vary regarding assurance of salvation. Most Calvinists hold to once saved always saved. But, they recognize that Judases exist. Such cases merely prove that the person never had saving faith to begin with.

CATHOLIC VIEW - THE THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES
Faith, Hope and Love required and all three are the result of Grace. The state of Grace is viewed as an ongoing process requiring continuous exercise of Faith, Hope, and Love.

Catholics and Reformed will use the same kinds of theological terminology, but they mean different things by it.

For the Reformed theologian “Justification” is a very narrow forensic concept. Justification is imputed to the believer. For the Catholic theologian, “Justification” is much broader and would include things like adoption and sanctification, which are infused into the believer.

The Catholic views works as being founded by Love through Grace. The Reformed don’t tend to view it as a component of salvation. It is viewed more as a necessary result.

Good paper discussing the two views:

Justification by Faith Alone
James Aiken
cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm
 
CATHOLIC VIEW - THE THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES
Faith, Hope and Love required and all three are the result of Grace. The state of Grace is viewed as an ongoing process requiring continuous exercise of Faith, Hope, and Love.

Catholics and Reformed will use the same kinds of theological terminology, but they mean different things by it.

For the Reformed theologian “Justification” is a very narrow forensic concept. Justification is imputed to the believer. For the Catholic theologian, “Justification” is much broader and would include things like adoption and sanctification, which are infused into the believer.

The Catholic views works as being founded by Love through Grace. The Reformed don’t tend to view it as a component of salv
ation. It is viewed more as a necessary result

This is one reason I cannot be a Catholic. I see that in spite of all the Catholic talk of Salvation/Justification by Grace their concept of “infused Righteoussness” actually amounts to “works” Righteoussness, that Salvation is ultimately what we do to earn it. To me it lessens at best what Christ did for us on the cross. Instead of giving us a Jesus that really saves from sin and death Catholic theology reduces what Jesus did to merely making Salvation possible to those who not only believe in Him but with the doctrine of “infused” righteoussness essentially says “your sins are forgiven, the slate is clean, now you must earn your Salvation.” Where’s “the Good News” of the Gospel in that? No my friends the Good News is that while we were yet sinners Christ died and rose again for us, He, the innocent sinless Lamb of God , bore the wrath of God and punishment we deserve in our stead. Salvation is by Grace through Faith in Christ . There is nothing we do to earn it, deserve it, or keep it. Good works are necessary in that they prove that we have genuine Faith, they do not save us or merit Heaven for us. We can never do enough good works to earn or merit Salvation. In Christ, jurist12
 
In my above post I sound sure of that position, but the truth is I am not. I am interested in being a Catholic and I guess my way of working things out is by making posts like that. So bear with me. I would like folks to give me some feedback on this issue as this is the major sticking point of my hesitation in being a Catholic. I have no difficulties with Sacramental theology (I am an Episcopalian), Mariology is another issue but not a major one, I can accept much of it. But the how the Catholic Church views Salvation/Justification is like I said the main issue for me. I am open to learn and understand. In Christ, jurist12
 
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jurist12:
This is one reason I cannot be a Catholic. I see that in spite of all the Catholic talk of Salvation/Justification by Grace their concept of “infused Righteoussness” actually amounts to “works” Righteoussness, that Salvation is ultimately what we do to earn it. To me it lessens at best what Christ did for us on the cross. Instead of giving us a Jesus that really saves from sin and death Catholic theology reduces what Jesus did to merely making Salvation possible to those who not only believe in Him but with the doctrine of “infused” righteoussness essentially says “your sins are forgiven, the slate is clean, now you must earn your Salvation.” Where’s “the Good News” of the Gospel in that? No my friends the Good News is that while we were yet sinners Christ died and rose again for us, He, the innocent sinless Lamb of God , bore the wrath of God and punishment we deserve in our stead. Salvation is by Grace through Faith in Christ . There is nothing we do to earn it, deserve it, or keep it. Good works are necessary in that they prove that we have genuine Faith, they do not save us or merit Heaven for us. We can never do enough good works to earn or merit Salvation. In Christ, jurist12
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You overlook one key thing and assume a false dichotomy. The Catholic notion of Grace extends even to love which is the foundation of good works. Grace makes these things possible.

Isn’t faith a work? Yes. But, like love true faith is a gift from God. (i.e. grace).

Is the goal merely to get a ticket to heaven or is it to be conformed in righteousness unto Christ so that we might fully love, honor and serve him?
 
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dts:
Is the goal merely to get a ticket to heaven or is it to be conformed in righteousness unto Christ so that we might fully love, honor and serve him?
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The question I would respond with is:

The goal is to be conformed in righteousness unto Christ, but is that conformation the salvific element, or is it Christ’s righteousness and not ours righteousness?

Ok, we got some doctrine discussed here. I believe, as said in the above post, that works strengthens faith. I’ve seen it in my life and in others’ lives. I’ve also seen the opposite, that sin weakens faith.
 
Reformed Rob:
The question I would respond with is:

The goal is to be conformed in righteousness unto Christ, but is that conformation the salvific element, or is it Christ’s righteousness and not ours righteousness?
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Beware of the false dichotomy. Christ’s righteousness must become ours before we enter the presence of a Holy God.
Reformed Rob:
Ok, we got some doctrine discussed here. I believe, as said in the above post, that works strengthens faith. I’ve seen it in my life and in others’ lives.
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Yes. Faith, Hope, and Love must work together and each builds the others.
Reformed Rob:
I’ve also seen the opposite, that sin weakens faith.
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Sin weakens faith, hope, and love.

Remember which is the greatest ---- it is love. Love is the consummation of the other three.

Take a look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. See especially the discussion of the theological virtues (§1812 etc…) and their relationship to the beatitudes, other virtues and the Ten Commandments. Study the outline and order of the table of contents for Part III: Life in Christ.

Instead of the term love, the Catechism use the term ‘charity.’ Here is its definition (§1822): “Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.”
Notice, this is nothing but the fulfillment of the law as summarized by Christ in the golden rule. Consider how this relates to the Ten Commandments.
 
Excerpt from Ludwig Ott, *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma * §16, 17 (Tan Books 1974)(most citations omitted)

Notice how the understanding of sin is key. It also becomes key in understanding purgatory and indulgences.

1. The Reformers Concept of Justification

The point of departure of Luther’s doctrine of Justification is the conviction that human nature was completely corrupted by Adam’s sin, and that original sin consists formally in evil concupiscence. Luther conceives Justification as a juridical act (actus forensis) by which God declares the sinner to be justified although he remains intrinsically unjust and sinful. On the negative side, Justification is not a real eradication of sin, but merely a non-imputation or cover of sin. On the positive side it is not an inner renewal and sanctification, but merely an external imputation of Christ’s justice . . . .

2. The True Concept of Justification

The Council of Trent, referring to Col 1: 13 defined Justification as: 'translation from that condition in which man is born as the son of the first Adam into the state of grace and adoption among the children of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour" . . . On the negative side it is a true eradication of sin; on the positive side it is a supernatural sanctifying and renewal of the inner man . . .

§ 17 The Causes of Justification

The Council of Trent . . . defined the following cause of justification:
  1. The final cause (causa finalis) is the honour of God and of Christ (primarie) and the eternal life of men (secundaria).
  2. The efficient cause (causa efficiens), more exactly, the main efficient cause (i.e. principalis), is the mercy of God.
  3. The meritorious cause (causa meritoria) is Jesus Christ, who as mediator between God and man, has made atonement for us and merited the grace by which we are justified.
  4. The instrumental cause (causa instrumentalis) of the first justification is the Sacrament of Baptism.
  5. The formal cause (causa formalis) is God’s justice, not by which he is Himself just but by which He makes us just . . . that is Sanctifying Grace . . .
According to the Council of Trent, sanctifying grace is the the sole formal cause of justification . . . This means that the infusion of sanctifying grace effects the eradication of sin as well as inner sanctification. With this the Council rejects the doctrine of double justice which was expounded by some Reformers . . . which taught that the forgiveness of sins was accomplished by the imputed justice of Christ, positive sanctification, however, by righteousness inhering in the soul.

According to the teaching of Scripture, grace and sin stand to each other in direct contrast like light and darkness, life and death. Thus the communication of grace necessarily effects the remission of sins. Cf 2 Cor. 6:14. . . Col. 2:13 . . . I John 3:14 . . .
 
Reformed Rob:
The question I would respond with is:

The goal is to be conformed in righteousness unto Christ, but is that conformation the salvific element, or is it Christ’s righteousness and not ours righteousness?
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Reformed Bob,

I think I understand your concern. For many Reformed Protestants exploring the Catholic Church, it seems that we weaken the sovereignty of God’s grace because we insist on human cooperation with it. (I believe RC Sproul accuses us of “synergism” as a result). In fairness, it often seems that many Catholic apologists lay greater stress on our own efforts in following Christ than we do on our reliance upon God’s grace.

Upon deeper reflection, however, we maintain that our salvation is all of God’s grace. It is true that we must cooperate with it, but even then our cooperation should be seen as God’s grace working within us. A key example of how this actually works is seen in the “fiat” of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She responded with her “Yes” to God only because she was “full of grace”; in other words, her free response was made possible only because of God’s grace. She did not choose God - in fact, He chose her (cf. Ephesians 1:4-6). She responded with the “obedience of faith” because God’s grace was fully active in her.

Hope this helps!
 
Reformed Rob:
The goal is to be conformed in righteousness unto Christ, but is that conformation the salvific element, or is it Christ’s righteousness and not our righteousness?
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Yes to both. Being conformed to Christ is what Catholics would call sanctifying grace. It is all His grace and none of ours. It is salvific because it gives us a likeness to him and actually enables us to live in His presence in heaven. But he does not destroy our own free will: we can still succumb to sin and throw him out of our soul, or choose to cooperate fully with his grace, and increase in sanctification.
 
Reformed Rob:
So, as a Catholic, what do you believe that’s different than what I believe? Obviously, you don’t believe that anyone is saved by “Faith Alone” because you say that rightousness is infused “given” to a person, and not merely imputed to a person. But how does that play out differently in your life and your prayers? Like, I pray to the effect that I know God has given me faith and delivered me from my sins, and that He would forgive me of my shortcomings and look to the righteousness of Christ accounted to me, rather than to my sinfulness, and have mercy and grant me repentance. And it’s the indwelling Holy Spirit of God that has given me life (regeneration) and works in me to will that which is pleasing to God.

So, I’m just wondering, like I said above, how do Catholics practically understand this “infused righteousness” different than the Calvinist’s “imputed righteousntess?”
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Hi Rob,

You got it right; we Catholics believe in infused rather than imputed grace. Imputation appears consistent with Martin Luther’s notion that the justified soul is a mere snow-covered dunghill, and that the declaration of righteousness is in more legal terms, i.e. God declares a sinner righteous even when in actuality, he is not. Well, you’re the one from the Reformed tradition, please refine this paragraph if I didn’t exactly get it right.

Catholics think of it more in “family” language, and justification is intimately tied in with grace, faith, baptism, regeneration and adoption. When we are justified, we are not only declared righteous: we are made righteous. A real cleansing takes place at baptism (Rom 6:4; 1 Pet 3:21; Col 2:12) and we become a new creation. The sinner is therefore not just merely acquitted; he becomes a son of God by adoption, and is incorporated into God’s family, and we share in God’s nature. This is essential because we cannot become sons of a Father whose nature we don’t share. We have “put on Jesus Christ” (Gal 3:27).

So how does this affect the way I live? Not much different from you. Even though at baptism I became a new creation, the weakness of the Fall is still with me, so I sin. I still have complete freedom to turn completely away from God. If that happens, only his grace can bring me to repentance. Just like you, we turn to Christ and his righteousness, never our own. But we don’t believe that God takes away our free will, nor that we would never desire to sin. St. Paul himself complained of this weakness in himself, and like him, we acknowledge that only Christ can set us free from our sinfulness. But as previous posters have said, grace needs our cooperation and our will for God in his love for us never forces a gift on those who do not want them.

And I confirm that we do not believe we are justified by our works; even works of charity. We are justified by grace alone, through faith, working in love. Scripture commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves, otherwise we are no better than demons, who believe, and tremble (James 2:19). Only through love does our faith actually come to life.
 
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