Practice of the Presence of God translation

[DBT]

So where, in heaven’s name, does quietism fit in?

And I guess the point is that it doesn’t . . . it’s a heresy. But like all heresies there’s an element of truth in it . . . but that truth is mixed up with all sorts of excesses and distortions. Unfortunately, as is often the case, those in the Church given the responsibility to sort all this out have little or no contemplative experience so the baby (i.e. authentic mystics) often got thrown out with the bathwater (i.e. heretics). Again, just speculating, I’m guessing that’s what happened with Brother Lawrence and any possible cause for cannonization in his day.

reen12:

I had two volumes of the letters of St. Teresa of Avila. Now* there* was a woman who knew what time of day it was, in terms of things practical. Her letters to her brother read like an accountant’s statement, at times. A very practical, even hard-headed business woman, in part.
To me, this is wholeness - writ large. This woman hardly looks like the portrait of sole passivity to me.:coffeeread:

Both St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross were no strangers to these controversies and both were careful not to get pigeon-holed into the group in their day with Quietist tendencies. And we need look no further than St. Teresa and all her troubles with inadequate confessors to see the difficulties that arise when those in authority can’t differentiate between true and false mysticism . . . or who are ignorant or hostile to the very notion.

Dave

 

[reen12]

quote: DBT

But like all heresies there’s an element of truth in it . . . but that truth is mixed up with all sorts of excesses and distortions. Unfortunately, as is often the case, those in the Church given the responsibility to sort all this out have little or no contemplative experience so the baby (i.e. authentic mystics) often got thrown out with the bathwater (i.e. heretics). Again, just speculating, I’m guessing that’s what happened with Brother Lawrence and any possible cause for cannonization in his day.
Both St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross were no strangers to these controversies and both were careful not to get pigeon-holed into the group in their day with Quietist tendencies. And we need look no further than St. Teresa and all her troubles with inadequate confessors to see the difficulties that arise when those in authority can’t differentiate between true and false mysticism . . . or who are ignorant or hostile to the very notion.

Oh, are you right. I suppose that this is where “you shall know them by their fruits” prevails.
That we are conversing about The Practice of the Presence of God, bespeaks the sensum fidei, I think - in that a man’s words would still be cherished, centuries later.

I think that it is difficult, to near impossible, to wholly transcend one’s own time. And as you note, even St. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila had to tread carefully, in their day.

It will be of interest, to see if Mother Teresa of Calcutta is canonized in our own time.

Another human being, of whom it was said, when she died “The saint is dead.”

Glory be to God, for her presence amongst us.

stanford.edu/group/ivfaculty/Essays/mtki0.jpg

We were all truly blessed, as was the destitute little human being
in her arms. In her, that little soul saw the face of God.

reen

 

[DBT]

I just happened to come across this bio from Christian Classics. It sheds interesting light on the cloud of Quietism that hung over the French mystics of Brother Lawrence’s day . . .

Jean-Pierre de Caussade - Jesuit ascetic writer

Jean Pierre de Caussade S.J. (March 6, 1675-1751) was a French Catholic Jesuit writer known for his work Abandonment to Divine Providence (also translated as The Sacrament of the Present Moment) and his posthumously-published letters of instruction to the Nuns of the Visitation at Nancy, where he spiritual director from 1733-1740, although he continued to write the sisters after leaving Nancy. While he is best known for his work with the sisters, he also spent years as preacher in southern and central France, as a college rector (at Perpignan and at Albi) and as the director of theological students at the Jesuit house in Toulouse. Caussade is remembered for, among other things, his belief that the present moment is a sacrament from God and that self-abandonment to it and its needs is a holy state - a belief which, at first glance, would appear to be heretical relative to Catholic dogma. In fact, because of this fear (especially with the Church’s condemnation of the Quietiest movement), Caussade’s instructions to the sisters were kept unpublished until 1861, and even then they were edited to protect them from charges of Quietism. A more authoritative version of these notes was published only in 1966. It is clear in his writings that he is aware of the Quietists and that he rejects their perspective.

Dave

 

[reen12]

quote: DBT

…Caussade is remembered for, among other things, his belief that the present moment is a sacrament from God and that self-abandonment to it and its needs is a holy state - a belief which, at first glance, would appear to be heretical relative to Catholic dogma. In fact, because of this fear (especially with the Church’s condemnation of the Quietiest movement), Caussade’s instructions to the sisters were kept unpublished until 1861, and even then they were edited to protect them from charges of Quietism. A more authoritative version of these notes was published only in 1966. It is clear in his writings that he is aware of the Quietists and that he rejects their perspective.

If, to God, all of time itself is “now,” than He is to be found in the now.

Just as the Israelites were told to only take enough manna as food for the day,
and not try to fill thier sacks with it, so that their food was, literally, given to them by God -
as their “daily bread.” They were to rely on God for their very sustenence, daily.

C.S. Lewis commented that there is no point - in asking for the grace needed, next week.
God gives His grace in the now.

And, grace itself, then, is our “daily bread,” in this sense.

de Caussade: Abandoment to Divine Providence:

amazon.com/Abandonment-Divine-Providence-Jean-Pierre-Caussade/dp/1602064334/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209164816&sr=1-2

What I find fascinating, in this, is that - in Eastern thought - reality is held to be a mere flow of phenomena. What “is,” in one moment, will change in the next, and even the “person” experiencing the given phenomena - in this flow of reality - has no enduring “self.”
The mind that apperceives the flow of phenomena has the same ephemeral nature - as the phenomena, which it appercieves.

This is, in essence, what is meant by “Go with the flow.”

I often wonder if those, who use this hortatory expression,
have any *idea *of the world-view that this is based on.

All of which goes to prove one thing, I think.
Four centuries ago, the debate over what, precisely, Quietism
consisted in, has been replaced, to my mind, by the debates
over the definition of human personhood.

The contending factions seem to break down to:

Judeo/Christianity - on the nature of man
versus
-both the doctrines of secular humanism, and those theories of psychology that tend to “define” human beings with no reference made - as to the existence of an immortal soul.

That is why, in the end - human beings, interacting with God,
whose stories are to be found in scripture [and not in a
theory “about God,”] - is a sure and safe road to travel - now,
or 400 years ago. To cleave to the images that God Himself
has provided. Shepherd, Good Samaritan, the stories of the prophets
in the Hebrew Scriptures. In these are the stories that God gave, to lead us safely home.

reen12

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Again, entirely fascinating reading for me:thumbsup: and I am learning something that attracts me about all our literature, including The Bible, and that is the times of the actual content and also when the literature was written, which in the case of Scripture are not necessarily identical. As we move forward in time and knowledge, our insight into these works can change and develop with new understandings advocated.
It does make me wonder yet again about some of the controversies in our own times and what the future will have to say.
Thanks Reen for the explanation as to why Brother Lawrence’s cause may be difficult to raise. Abandonment to Divine Providence by de Caussade is another work that ‘sits by my bedside’ and often referred to…it brought me to a full stop and took my spirituality to a new level. I am also a fan of St. Therese, St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross and “go with the flow” is a common phrase I use.
Thank you to you both (DBT and Reen) for all this valuable information and anyone else who may add to this fascinating discussion.

Blessings - Barb

 

[reen12]

quote: BarbaraTherese

Abandonment to Divine Providence by de Caussade is another work that ‘sits by my bedside’ and often referred to…it brought me to a full stop and took my spirituality to a new level*. *

I meant to ask you, Barb, about the work of Père de Caussade.
Would you share what you found, in Abandonment to Divine Providence,
that you found so helpful?

*Merci, *

reens

 

[BarbaraTherese]

quote: BarbaraTherese

I meant to ask you, Barb, about the work of Père de Caussade.
Would you share what you found, in Abandonment to Divine Providence,
that you found so helpful?

*Merci, *

reens

Hi Reen…At the time I had a mental block going as I could not for the life of me understand what God’s Will for me actually was - for my whole life, let alone in each moment. Mind you, once you understand God’s Will for your life, probably the rest will fall into place. I laboured and laboured in many ways with no success. With reading Abandonment to Divine Providence which was almost - almost - accidental, it all became crystal clear to me with great simplicity, so much so that I could not for the life of me understand at all why I could not insight God’s Will for me before. I do think that de Caussade in Abandonment to DP can get repetitive and perhaps often, but it remains one of my ‘bedside books’ nonethless. His letters I found and find very helpful. Again, what may work for another does not necessarily work for all…Blessings - Barb

 

[reen12]

quote: BarbaraTherese

Hi Reen…At the time I had a mental block going as I could not for the life of me understand what God’s Will for me actually was - for my whole life, let alone in each moment. Mind you, once you understand God’s Will for your life, probably the rest will fall into place. I laboured and laboured in many ways with no success. With reading Abandonment to Divine Providence

which was almost - almost - accidental, it all became crystal clear to me with great simplicity, so much so that I could not for the life of me understand at all why I could not insight God’s Will for me before. I do think that de Caussade in Abandonment to DP can get repetitive and perhaps often, but it remains one of my ‘bedside books’ nonethless. His letters I found and find very helpful. Again, what may work for another does not necessarily work for all…Blessings - Barb

quote: BarbaraTherese

…it all became crystal clear to me with great simplicity…

That’s the key, I think. ‘Great simplicity.’
In my own instance - putting down crosses that God never intended me to carry,
and all did become simplified. Like working to “solve” a Rubix cube, for 50 years,
and in a moment, the cube falls from your hands, as you take His hand offered.

“He drew me out of the mire, and set me in a high place.”

And sometimes, that high place is in His arms, when He comforts
by holding one close to His heart, for a time, where confusion falls away.

Much as Zusia noted - that God might ask him
why was he not more like Zusia?

God wishes us to have sufficient self-knowledge, if for no other reason, that - when we do not have this knowledge, our effort to help others is more like driving with the brakes on, continually.
Most wearing of heart, soul and mind.

Thanks for your reply, Barb.

reens

 

[BarbaraTherese]

quote: BarbaraTherese

quote: BarbaraTherese

That’s the key, I think. ‘Great simplicity.’
In my own instance - putting down crosses that God never intended me to carry,
and all did become simplified. Like working to “solve” a Rubix cube, for 50 years,
and in a moment, the cube falls from your hands, as you take His hand offered.

“He drew me out of the mire, and set me in a high place.”

And sometimes, that high place is in His arms, when He comforts
by holding one close to His heart, for a time, where confusion falls away.

Much as Zusia noted - that God might ask him
why was he not more like Zusia?

God wishes us to have sufficient self-knowledge, if for no other reason, that - when we do not have this knowledge, our effort to help others is more like driving with the brakes on, continually.
Most wearing of heart, soul and mind.

Thanks for your reply, Barb.

reens

… …

I really liked the story in the Zusia thread you have started that ended with:

Much as Zusia noted - that God might ask him
why was he not more like Zusia?

There is the good opinion one may have of oneself and also the good opinion others may have of one that one may ‘take onboard’ that is not actually correct and one may know it(not saying that Zusia did, but I got the underlying message - or at least the message to me)…and God may indeed ask me why I am not more like the false image of myself or that good false image that others may have? Great story, Reen! Thank you for sharing these wonderful wisdom stories in the other thread - will come back with a link to them…Blessings - Barb

Link to Reen’s thread “A story of Reb Zusia”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=231100

 

[Augustine]

I love, too, the Orthodox work The Way of the Pilgrim.
I think the translator’s name is French -in the copy that I prefer.

“The Way of the Pilgrim” is very good indeed. I came across it many years before Br. Lawrence, but I have to say that Br. Lawrence hit the nail on the head better than the pilgrim in understanding and living St. Paul’s echo of Jesus’ admonishment to pray always.

Still, both works are wonderful and highly recommended for those willing to follow the Lord more closely.

 

[reen12]

quote: Augustine

“The Way of the Pilgrim” is very good indeed. I came across it many years before Br. Lawrence, but I have to say that Br. Lawrence hit the nail on the head better than the pilgrim in understanding and living St. Paul’s echo of Jesus’ admonishment to pray always.

Would you please consider explaining this more fully, Augustine?

The Pilgrim [fictional character] practices hesychasm. The prayer of the heart.
Brother Lawrence strove to place all in the hands of God.

I have a theory, which may not hold “theological water” - that God is
pleased, when we reach out to Him in a manner expressive of the
personality and the temperment that He gives each - in conjunction with
the experiences that God has permitted, in each life.

This is the meaning, I think, of the story of Reb Zusia.
“Why weren’t you more like Zusia?”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=231100

Thank you, :tiphat:

reen12

 

[Augustine]

Would you please consider explaining this more fully, Augustine?

The Pilgrim [fictional character] practices hesychasm. The prayer of the heart.
Brother Lawrence strove to place all in the hands of God.

I wouldn’t describe Br. Lawrence’s way like this, but rather that he strove to be in the loving presence of God in all places at all times.

It’s not difficult to imagine that the Prayer of the Heart risks becoming mechanical repetition (even though such prayer wouldn’t be rejected by God). Whereas if one considers prayer after its Teresian definition as a loving dialog with the Lord, Br. Lawrence’s way is much closer to Our Lord’s admonition to pray always.

 

[reen12]

quote: Augustine

I wouldn’t describe Br. Lawrence’s way like this, but rather that he strove to be in the loving presence of God in all places at all times.

It’s not difficult to imagine that the Prayer of the Heart risks becoming mechanical repetition (even though such prayer wouldn’t be rejected by God). Whereas if one considers prayer after its Teresian definition as a loving dialog with the Lord, Br. Lawrence’s way is much closer to Our Lord’s admonition to pray always.

Thank you for replying, Augustine. I surely see your point.
The little way of Brother Lawrence is open to all, in every
state of life. Being as continually present to God, as
Brother Lawrence was, was a gift of grace and a result of
his continual effort.

I appreciated his placing, in God’s hands, the work of the day -
in the sense of serenely remaining in His presence,
untroubled by a given outcome. And not just in the daily work,
but in all things. This is a level of trust that I can only
appreciate, at a distance.

Hesychasm is certainly open to mere repetition. In fact,
the Philokalia states, and restates, many times - that this is not to be
attempted, without the guidance of a spiritual father, long-practiced in hesychastic prayer.

Under this guidance, and with the grace of God, the prayer
descends to the heart, and continues, even in sleep.

The Philokalia has been available for many years, now, in
English translation. I remember waiting for the next volume
to appear, and rejoiced, when it arrived on the bookshelves.

amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Philokalia&x=11&y=22

quote: Augustine

I wouldn’t describe Br. Lawrence’s way like this, but rather that he strove to be in the loving presence of God in all places at all times.

Thank you for giving your thought, in response to my request, Augustine.
I was thinking about putting difficult and worrying matters in the hands of God.
You have pointed out that that is not the description of
Brother Lawrence’s way, as presented in The Practice of
the Presence of God. I had asked the question, because
hesychasm speaks to me, more than does the way of Brother Lawrence.
Perhaps hesychastic prayer could be practiced, by a layman or a laywoman,
but I tend to doubt that.
The Pilgrim is a fictional character, alone in life, who wanders
in solitude, and has not the daily cares of family life,
nor a job to consider.
Yet the work brought the teachings of the Jesus Prayer
to many people. In terms of the prayer and layman,
I have regard for the brief thoughts of
H.R.H. Princess Ileana, of Romania, and her words have
stayed with me. Here was a woman who loved Jesus,
and the Jesus Prayer.

concentric.net/~Cosmas/jesus_prayer.htm

Kindest regards,

reen