Prayers to images and saints

[seansmom]

Can someone help me answer this young woman who was raised Catholic and is now converting to another religion?

"I agree that we do ask each other for prayers. After all were encouraged to do so throughout God’s word (James 5:16). The difference is that we don’t pray to the person we are requesting from. By doing so we invalidate the ransom Jesus paid so we might have the privelege to approach His Father in prayer. Maybe it’ll help to read these simple words found at 1 Tim 2:5,6

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding sacrifice to all…

So here’s where I beg to differ with you on this topic of prayer to saints. When I went to (Catholic) church, I knelt down at the many altars placed in front of the images and statues of saints. And, in the very same fashion that I was taught by nuns and priests to approach Jesus in prayer, I would then proceed to kneel down, bow my head and bless myself. I would then follow it with prayer to the images of the saints that I was in front of. For instance, in front of statues of Mary, I would pray the Hail Mary. There was never any doubt who I was praying to!

I know I wouldn’t dream of kneeling down to the person I would ask to pray for me. To do so would undeniably be an act of worship!

I speak for myself when I have to logically conclude that I can’t find any purpose in praying to a saint in request for the privelege of prayer to Jehovah. It serves me no purpose. I end all my prayers in Jesus’ name, no others.

Please remember too that I am speaking from my own experience and what was regular worship among us Catholics."

Thank you for any replies!

 

[Magicsilence]

sean(name removed by moderator):

Can someone help me answer this young woman who was raised Catholic and is now converting to another religion?

"I agree that we do ask each other for prayers. After all were encouraged to do so throughout God’s word (James 5:16). The difference is that we don’t pray to the person we are requesting from. By doing so we invalidate the ransom Jesus paid so we might have the privelege to approach His Father in prayer. Maybe it’ll help to read these simple words found at 1 Tim 2:5,6

Jesus did not die that we may pray to the Father.

Also, when we speak of praying to the saints. That is asking them to pray for us. Ask your friend what the difference is? Praying to a saint to ask them to pray for us? What is wrong with that?

 

[DeFide]

sean(name removed by moderator):

Can someone help me answer this young woman who was raised Catholic and is now converting to another religion?

"I agree that we do ask each other for prayers. After all were encouraged to do so throughout God’s word (James 5:16). The difference is that we don’t pray to the person we are requesting from. By doing so we invalidate the ransom Jesus paid so we might have the privelege to approach His Father in prayer. Maybe it’ll help to read these simple words found at 1 Tim 2:5,6

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding sacrifice to all…

So here’s where I beg to differ with you on this topic of prayer to saints. When I went to (Catholic) church, I knelt down at the many altars placed in front of the images and statues of saints. And, in the very same fashion that I was taught by nuns and priests to approach Jesus in prayer, I would then proceed to kneel down, bow my head and bless myself. I would then follow it with prayer to the images of the saints that I was in front of. For instance, in front of statues of Mary, I would pray the Hail Mary. There was never any doubt who I was praying to!

I know I wouldn’t dream of kneeling down to the person I would ask to pray for me. To do so would undeniably be an act of worship!

I speak for myself when I have to logically conclude that I can’t find any purpose in praying to a saint in request for the privelege of prayer to Jehovah. It serves me no purpose. I end all my prayers in Jesus’ name, no others.

Please remember too that I am speaking from my own experience and what was regular worship among us Catholics."

Thank you for any replies!

Recommended Reading:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1339459&mode=linear#post1339459

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=690335&mode=linear#post690335

 

[thistle]

sean(name removed by moderator):

Can someone help me answer this young woman who was raised Catholic and is now converting to another religion?

"I agree that we do ask each other for prayers. After all were encouraged to do so throughout God’s word (James 5:16). The difference is that we don’t pray to the person we are requesting from. By doing so we invalidate the ransom Jesus paid so we might have the privelege to approach His Father in prayer. Maybe it’ll help to read these simple words found at 1 Tim 2:5,6

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding sacrifice to all…

So here’s where I beg to differ with you on this topic of prayer to saints. When I went to (Catholic) church, I knelt down at the many altars placed in front of the images and statues of saints. And, in the very same fashion that I was taught by nuns and priests to approach Jesus in prayer, I would then proceed to kneel down, bow my head and bless myself. I would then follow it with prayer to the images of the saints that I was in front of. For instance, in front of statues of Mary, I would pray the Hail Mary. There was never any doubt who I was praying to!

I know I wouldn’t dream of kneeling down to the person I would ask to pray for me. To do so would undeniably be an act of worship!

I speak for myself when I have to logically conclude that I can’t find any purpose in praying to a saint in request for the privelege of prayer to Jehovah. It serves me no purpose. I end all my prayers in Jesus’ name, no others.

Please remember too that I am speaking from my own experience and what was regular worship among us Catholics."

Thank you for any replies!

www.catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp

www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[RPConover]

People would and do kneel before kings, and they’re not worshiping, but showing extreme respect and reverence for a person of high authority.

 

[VociMike]

The saints are in heaven. In the Bible there are cases of people falling prostrate or otherwise “bowing down” before those other heavenly creatures, the angels. And they were never rebuked for doing so, that I can remember.

I would say that there are no “acts of worship”. That is, there is no act that can only signify worship. Instead, there are acts which flow out of worship. First we worship, and then we act. Nobody praying to Mary, whether kneeling or not, is intending to worship Mary.

 

[Tietjen]

sean(name removed by moderator):

Can someone help me answer this young woman who was raised Catholic and is now converting to another religion?

"I agree that we do ask each other for prayers. After all were encouraged to do so throughout God’s word (James 5:16). The difference is that we don’t pray to the person we are requesting from. By doing so we invalidate the ransom Jesus paid so we might have the privelege to approach His Father in prayer.

See that is where I get confused. Why do people ignorantly believe that praying = worship? Webster’s definition says this:
“Entreat, Implore – often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea.”

An example would be, “I pray you sir, to be careful.” Remember when people knew what words meant? Ah, those were the days!
From sean(name removed by moderator)'s friend:

Maybe it’ll help to read these simple words found at 1 Tim 2:5,6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding sacrifice to all…

Here she misinterprets Scripture. In verses 1 and 2 (which are just above verses 5 and 6) St. Paul urges those HUMAN BEINGS present to offer supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings to be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why? If Christ were the only mediator who can speak to the Father would St. Paul ask for the intercessions of HUMAN BEINGS on earth. When we pray (ask) the Saints to intercede on our behalf, is it crazy to believe that those who are with God might be able to speak to Him? Like most anti-Catholic rhetoric, the verse cited by your friend simply doesn’t hold water.
From sean(name removed by moderator)'s friend:

So here’s where I beg to differ with you on this topic of prayer to saints. When I went to (Catholic) church, I knelt down at the many altars placed in front of the images and statues of saints. And, in the very same fashion that I was taught by nuns and priests to approach Jesus in prayer, I would then proceed to kneel down, bow my head and bless myself. I would then follow it with prayer to the images of the saints that I was in front of. For instance, in front of statues of Mary, I would pray the Hail Mary. There was never any doubt who I was praying to!

I should hope not. She should always know to whom she is addressing a request to. To do otherwise would be rude. All kidding aside, she sounds as though she also has a problem with “images,” “statues,” and “alters” all of which are biblical. Remember when Moses made the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:8-9) and placed it on his staff? The same “image” found in most doctors offices today? I remember the two cherubim beaten out of gold (Exodus 25:18-19) which adorned the Arc of the Covenant as well, but maybe I’m dating myself here. 1 Kings 7:25-45 refers to the temple having bronze oxen, lions, and pomegranates does it not? Are these things evil? Nah… I would suggest that what IS evil is people who take snippets from the Bible and twist them around to call good evil and evil good.
From sean(name removed by moderator)'s friend:

I know I wouldn’t dream of kneeling down to the person I would ask to pray for me. To do so would undeniably be an act of worship!

Kneeling down before praying to a Saint isn’t a requirement; it’s simply a sign of respect and piety. Tell her that it is okay to stand, sit, lie down, or even drive a car while having a conversation with a saint. I do it all the time. I also kneel as well though.
From sean(name removed by moderator)'s friend:

I speak for myself when I have to logically conclude that I can’t find any purpose in praying to a saint in request for the privelege of prayer to Jehovah. It serves me no purpose. I end all my prayers in Jesus’ name, no others.

“Logically” wouldn’t it make more sense to ask someone who is with God to also pray to Him on her behalf as well? There’s nothing wrong with praying directly to God and the Church doesn’t claim that there is. In addition, I know of no Catholics who end a prayer to a Saint by saying, “I pray these things in the name of Saint ________.”

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[Tietjen]

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From sean(name removed by moderator)'s friend:

Please remember too that I am speaking from my own experience and what was regular worship among us Catholics."

Okay, I have to ask. How old is she? How much “experience” does she have in these matters? 2000 years worth? That would make her my younger sister . Did her “experience” help determine which books make up the Bible she uses? Did her “experience” help translate it? She can’t translate the word “prayer” so how can she adequately discern dogma?

To sum everything up (without using sarcasm), I would caution her to re-think her decision of leaving the Church (the original Church that Christ Himself founded 2000 years ago) in lieu of a Church founded by men some 500 or so years ago. Christ never said to St. Peter, “upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the hell shall not prevail against it. But you’ll have to wait 1500 years from now.” (See Mathew chapter 16 verse 18). The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim3:15). What Church does she believe that was talking about? The Baptists (founded by John Symth in 1609), the Lutherans (founded by Luther in 1517, maybe the Mormons (found by Joseph Smith in 1830). Me thinks that perhaps they are all a bit too young to be mentioned in 1 Timothy. But hey… that’s just me thinking “logically” again.

 

[jimmy]

sean(name removed by moderator):

Can someone help me answer this young woman who was raised Catholic and is now converting to another religion?

"I agree that we do ask each other for prayers. After all were encouraged to do so throughout God’s word (James 5:16). The difference is that we don’t pray to the person we are requesting from. By doing so we invalidate the ransom Jesus paid so we might have the privelege to approach His Father in prayer. Maybe it’ll help to read these simple words found at 1 Tim 2:5,6

Yes you do. To pray simple means to ask. When I ask or make a request of a friend I pray. Have you ever heard the statement, “pray tell”? Or something similar.

Jesus did not die so that we could pray to the Father; He died so that we could have union with the Father in heaven.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding sacrifice to all…

Every time you pray for your brother or sister you are acting as a mediator. You have confused the meaning of this statement. The true meaning is refering to the reconciliation of man with God. Christ reconciled us by His sacrifice. No one else can save you from death, only Christ. In this sense Christ is the only mediator. But we can pray for eachother and ask for prayers from others. In this sense we are all mediators between man and Christ. And in this way the saints are mediators as well.

So here’s where I beg to differ with you on this topic of prayer to saints. When I went to (Catholic) church, I knelt down at the many altars placed in front of the images and statues of saints.

There are no altars placed in front of statues and images of saints. That is either purely false or your parish is acting differently than it should. An altar means sacrifice. No sacrifice is offered to saints.

And, in the very same fashion that I was taught by nuns and priests to approach Jesus in prayer, I would then proceed to kneel down, bow my head and bless myself. I would then follow it with prayer to the images of the saints that I was in front of. For instance, in front of statues of Mary, I would pray the Hail Mary. There was never any doubt who I was praying to!

Of course there should be no doubt. When you say a Hail Mary it should be clear to you that your prayer is to both Mary and God. No prayer bypasses God. Every prayer by virtue of it being in charity for God, is a prayer to God. Have you ever heard of contemplative prayer? It is a prayer in which no words are used, yet it is to God. It is not to God because you mention Him by name(because you do not mention Him by name); it is to God because it is done out of love for God.

I know I wouldn’t dream of kneeling down to the person I would ask to pray for me. To do so would undeniably be an act of worship!

You have a false understanding of worship. I guess that if you kneel before your bed you are a bed worshiper.

I speak for myself when I have to logically conclude that I can’t find any purpose in praying to a saint in request for the privelege of prayer to Jehovah. It serves me no purpose. I end all my prayers in Jesus’ name, no others.

I begin and end every one of my prayers in the name of The Trinity.