Prayers to Saints being watered down?

[BarbaraTherese]

I am sorry, Cyberwolf, but I really cannot understand what you are saying nor why . Certainly I would never call into question the Doctrine of the Communion of Saints which is in the Creed. To do so would be heresy. I dont think it is a question I don’t think of “having” the Doctrine - it is a question of it being a Reality and of underscoring this by making it a Doctrine of The Church, to deny which is heresy making one in fact a heretic.
Perhaps and possibly what is under discussion, leastways I think - I am totally unsure… are the roles and relationships within The Communion of Saints???
The entry on the Communion of Saints in New Advent is rather lengthy and I have only taken quotations from it, not the whole entry. It does clearly explain the roles and relationships within the Doctrine of The Communion of Saints…Blessings - Barb

newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. … but also a mutual exchange of examples, prayers, merits, and satisfactions; between the Church on earth on the one hand, and purgatory and heaven on the other, suffrages, invocation, intercession, veneration. These connotations belong here only in so far as they integrate the transcendent idea of spiritual solidarity between all the children of God.

consequently the faithful on earth exchanging merits and satisfactions (I-II:113:6, and Suppl., 13:2), the souls in purgatory profiting by the suffrages of the living and the intercession of the saints (Suppl., 71), the saints themselves **receiving honour and giving **intercession

and in their private devotions, by observing the instructions to worship God and then to “pray, first to Saint Mary, and the holy apostles, and the holy martyrs, and all God’s saints, **that they would intercede for them to **God”. In this way they learned to look up to the saints in heaven

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Praying to The Saints (Catholic Answers Article)

Mentioned in this article is Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity

…………I can especially very highly recommend this book and especially for lay people perhaps uneducated in theology.
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Another Catholic Answers Article:
Intercession of The Saints
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

The Communion of Saints
This page contains links to articles that discuss the Catholic view of the communion of saints, a doctrine we affirm whenever we recite the Nicene or Apostle’s Creed.

There is also on the link below a list of articles (with links) connected to Saints, The Communion of Saints and praying to saints, their roles, and other connected texts………numerous articles on these subjects.
(Please note that I have not checked on the source of each article which I would usually do, or try to do, before posting. The site itself claims to be Catholic)

homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ct1_commsaints.html

Here is a beautiful prayer of Methodius to Our Lady which is theologically sound and nothing ‘protestant’ about it…I am taking it that ‘protestant’ for the purposes of this thread possibly, probably, could mean ‘coldly theological’ …and again I am totally unsure, but this could be the objection in the opening post of this thread

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (*Oration on Simeon and Anna *14 [A.D. 305]).

“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

 

[John_Hiner]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Perhaps this quotation from the current Catechism will give some insight into the meaning of the Saints “reigning” with Christ:

God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence. (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 1884)

It seems the freedom of the Saints should be greater not less than men living on earth.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[porthos11]

**But modern prayers well I’ll use an example

The prayer to Fulten J. Sheen:

Eternal Father, You alone grant us every blessing in Heaven and on earth, through the redemptive mission of Your Divine Son, Jesus Christ, and by the working of the Holy Spirit. If it be according to Your Will, glorify Your servant, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, by granting the favor I now request through his prayerful intercession (mention your request). I make this prayer confidently through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.**

Fulton Sheen has not yet been officially canonized, so this prayer is not a good example.

Actually, it is. It’s a good example of a prayer *for his canonization. *

That’s not the same as a devotional prayer, which indeed, is written and approved once a saint or blessed achieves a cultus. Then that devotional prayer is indeed addressed to the saint directly.

But for now, Fulton Sheen has no cultus, and therefore, is not entitled to such devotional prayers as of yet.

But all liturgical Collects are always addressed to God, even for those of saints.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Perhaps this quotation from the current Catechism will give some insight into the meaning of the Saints “reigning” with Christ:

God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence. (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 1884)It seems the freedom of the Saints should be greater not less than men living on earth.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

1739 Freedom and sin. Man’s freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God’s plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.

---

The greatest freedom there is humanly speaking is to choose to unite oneself to God’s Will and His Goodness…and in Heaven this is brought to its fulfillment and freedom attains its true objective and longed for perfection. “Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in Thee” (St. Augustine)…hence, yes - the saints enjoy a far greater freedom than we do. As I said before, this could reduce down to the question of whether there is free will in Heaven…and now another basic question enters into things: What is freedom?
I still tend to think we are saying the same things differently

 

[John_Hiner]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear Barb:

We are saying many things that are the same. However, we are disagreeing in one direct way, you are saying that prayers asking the Saints to act directly are “incorrect” because they are theologically in error. I am saying that they are correct because the saints can and do act to help us.

I read the article “Is There Free Will in Heaven?” which you recommended earlier. It is significant that Fr. Saunders ends that article with this paragraph:

Granted, we are still left with a mystery that at this time we are incapable of fully grasping. Nevertheless, we beg God’s grace and rely on the protection of our guardian angels to assist us in freely choosing each day to know, love and serve God in this life so we can have eternal life with Him in the Kingdom of Heaven. ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FRWILL.htm

This is specific advice to the reader to rely on one’s guardian angel. This reminds one of the prayer, Angele Dei:

ANGEL OF GOD, my guardian dear, To whom his love commits me here; Ever this (day, night) be at my side, To light and guard, to rule and guide. Amen.

“As best can be determined, this prayer is an 11th/12th century interpolation of a prayer composed by Reginald of Canterbury, who died sometime after 1109. This prayer is from Reginald’s Life of St. Malchus (d. c 390), a famous hermit who was a friend of St. Jerome (c 341-420). The popular English translation given [above] is from the later half of the 19th century and appears in the Baltimore Manual of Prayers (1888).

Guardian Angels protect their charges against the assaults of demons to preserve them from sin. Several passages in Scripture mention them in passing. (Dn 10: 13,20-21, Tob 12:12, Mt 18:10, Acts 12:11,15). October 2 is the memorial to the Guardian Angels. This prayer carries a partial indulgence.” preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Basics/AngeleDei.html
In the Latin it is even more manifest that “light (illumine),” “guard (custodi),” “rule (rege),” and “guide (guberna)” are direct commands addressed to the angel himself. It is significant that this prayer is indulgenced (Handbook of Indulgences, no. 8), and therefore not a casual or theologically ill-considered devotion.

The translation in the Handbook of Indulgences is perhaps preferable to the one above:

Angel sent by God to guide me, be my light and walk beside me; be my guardian and protect me; on the paths of life direct me.

I continue to consider this issue. Thank you for your help.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[BarbaraTherese]

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration***, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.***

While the above quotation is referring to the living stil the earthly life - this Divine action of God continues after death and in the Life of Heaven……………the good works of the saints also must first be attributed to God (their origin) giving God the merit (who effects the good works) and then to the saints for their prayers and intercession for those good works.

everything2.com/index.pl?node=saint

At the Council of Trent in December of 1563, leaders in the Catholic Church discussed the merits/benefits of invocating and venerating the saints, and they came up with a decree which stated that ***

According to the teachings of the church the saints reign together with Christ

*** and offer their prayers to God on behalf of humankind. Therefore it is good and profitable to plead with them in order to receive God’s favors through Jesus Christ.

This statement helps encapsulate what role the saints played in the lives of believers centuries ago, as well as today- intercessors on the behalf of those who pray to them.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/trent.htm

**TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS OF SAINTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES: "The holy council commands all bishops and others who hold the office of teaching and have charge of the cura animarum, that in accordance with the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and with the unanimous teaching of the holy Fathers and the decrees of sacred councils, they above all instruct the faithful diligently in matters relating to intercession and invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the legitimate use of images, ***

teaching them that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their prayers to God for men, that it is good and beneficial suppliantly to invoke them and to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support

*** in order to obtain favors from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our redeemer and savior; and that they think impiously who deny that the saints who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven are to be invoked, or who assert that they do not pray for men, or that our invocation of them to pray for each of us individually is idolatry, or that it is opposed to the word of God and inconsistent with the honor of the one mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ, or that it is foolish to pray vocally or mentally to those who reign in heaven."

 

[BarbaraTherese]

We are saying many things that are the same. However, we are disagreeing in one direct way, you are saying that prayers asking the Saints to act directly are “incorrect” because they are theologically in error. I am saying that they are correct because the saints can and do act to help us.

Hi John… sorry, but I cannot understand what you mean by “act directly”. Yes, the saints do act to help us through interceding for us. The saints cannot act independant of God and His Goodness and Will, which I think probably was the initial issue in this thread? Any blessing or favour is gifted by God through the saints as channels at times of God’s Blessings and favours.

I read the article “Is There Free Will in Heaven?” which you recommended earlier. It is significant that Fr. Saunders ends that article with this paragraph:

Granted, we are still left with a mystery that at this time we are incapable of fully grasping. Nevertheless, we beg God’s grace and rely on the protection of our guardian angels to assist us in freely choosing each day to know, love and serve God in this life so we can have eternal life with Him in the Kingdom of Heaven. ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FRWILL.htmThis is specific advice to the reader to rely on one’s guardian angel. This reminds one of the prayer, Angele Dei:

ANGEL OF GOD, my guardian dear, To whom his love commits me here; Ever this (day, night) be at my side, To light and guard, to rule and guide. Amen.“As best can be determined, this prayer is an 11th/12th century interpolation of a prayer composed by Reginald of Canterbury, who died sometime after 1109. This prayer is from Reginald’s Life of St. Malchus (d. c 390), a famous hermit who was a friend of St. Jerome (c 341-420). The popular English translation given [above] is from the later half of the 19th century and appears in the Baltimore Manual of Prayers (1888).Guardian Angels protect their charges against the assaults of demons to preserve them from sin. Several passages in Scripture mention them in passing. (Dn 10: 13,20-21, Tob 12:12, Mt 18:10, Acts 12:11,15). October 2 is the memorial to the Guardian Angels. This prayer carries a partial indulgence.” preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Basics/AngeleDei.htmlIn the Latin it is even more manifest that “light (illumine),” “guard (custodi),” “rule (rege),” and “guide (guberna)” are direct commands addressed to the angel himself. It is significant that this prayer is indulgenced (Handbook of Indulgences, no. 8), and therefore not a casual or theologically ill-considered devotion.

The translation in the Handbook of Indulgences is perhaps preferable to the one above:

Angel sent by God to guide me, be my light and walk beside me; be my guardian and protect me; on the paths of life direct me.I continue to consider this issue. Thank you for your help.

As I did say in another post, God who can do all things, can surely delegate a role to some person. Our guardian angels have a role or duty and stewardship from God. That we have a guardian angel each who has a commission from God to guide, guard and protect is Church teaching…no way do I dispute that and have great devotion to my guardian angels since childhood.

All I am saying is that all and any good has God as its origin and source, bringing it also into effect. And that first God is due all thanksgiving and praise and then our saints or angels for the role they have played in God’s Blessings upon us.

I really did want to avoid this if I could …going round in circles saying the same thing differently. I think the subject is an important issue too as praying to the saints and our belief in angels, including our guardian angel, features in our Catholic spirituality and we need to understand that all that is good has God as its creator and origin, bringing it into effect - however God may do so. That all praise and thanksgiving is first due to God. AND THEN to our saints and/or angels for the role they have played.

It seems that we may have posted round about the same time - I did not read your post to which I am referring until after I posted my two previous posts. Probably both of us are going to hold stubbornly to our point of view and go round in circles. I dont want to do this and I am finding it difficult to insight what you are actually saying, and my poverty. It is getting confusing to me.

Blessings this Lent - Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The issue may be more productively posed and even settled in the Apologetics Forum, eliciting more responses and possibly more informed educated responses than mine anyway? Got a day ahead of me at this point, but I might pose the question myself and see what comes up.

Blessings - Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The issue may be more productively posed and even settled in the Apologetics Forum, eliciting more responses and possibly more informed educated responses than mine anyway? Got a day ahead of me at this point, but I might pose the question myself and see what comes up.

Blessings - Barb

I have initiated a thread in Apologetics on this subject. The thread can be found on:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3375657#post3375657

Blessings this Lent…Barb

 

[Alexios]

Bpbasilphx,

Exactly. I was saying exactly what you are saying, albeit in a more sarcastic way…