Praying for people in the past

[JediHockey]

i recently overheard a discussion where an individual was claiming that you could pray for people that they do good in something that has already happened or that they may overcome a difficulty that they have already overcome. This seems like a really dumb idea to me. An example they used was praying for the victims of the Holocaust that they may persevere. Another one was praying that God help their friend on their test that they have already taken. Does the Church say anything about this?

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

I remember reading in a book on Padre Pio that he said that since God stands outside of time that you can pray for someone who died long ago just in the same way you might pray for someone with current struggles. It all makes sence once you realize that all moments of time are eternally “present” to God. For God, right now it’s March 16, 2011 and June 6, 1944, and every other time as well. So feel free to pray that your grandfather died in a state of grace on the beaches of Normandy on D-day.

 

[JediHockey]

but that doesnt make sense. Even though the past may be the same as the present for God, it still isnt for us. We have recorded our known history. What has happened has happened. I find it hard to believe that we can change the past through our prayers.

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

but that doesnt make sense. Even though the past may be the same as the present for God, it still isnt for us. We have recorded our known history. What has happened has happened. I find it hard to believe that we can change the past through our prayers.

Well sure, it wouldn’t make sense if you prayed that your grandfather, who died at 25 in the Normandy invasion, DIDN’T die. But you can pray for him that he die in a state of grace, even though you’re praying 67 years after D-day in “our time”.

 

[JediHockey]

Well sure, it wouldn’t make sense if you prayed that your grandfather, who died at 25 in the Normandy invasion, DIDN’T die. But you can pray for him that he die in a state of grace, even though you’re praying 67 years after D-day in “our time”.

i dont see how those 2 scenarios are any different. either he died or he survived. either he died in a state of grace or he didn’t. or maybe i dont fully understand what dying in ’ a state of grace’ means. isnt it dying without a mortal sin on your soul?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Prayer will not change the known past obviously. There is no value in praying that 9/11 didn’t happen. However, we can pray that the ones who died in it turned to God in their last moments.

I am aware of a case in which a young woman, living a poor life style, was quite brutally murdered. I pray often that God give her the grace to repent in her final moments and forgive her killer. If it is His Will, God can quite easily give her those graces in anticipation of the prayers He knows that I am going to pray.

I think it as important, probably more important, to pray people into Purgatory as to pray for them to get out.

 

[JediHockey]

Prayer will not change the known past obviously. **There is no value in praying that 9/11 didn’t happen. However, we can pray that the ones who died in it turned to God in their last moments.
**
I am aware of a case in which a young woman, living a poor life style, was quite brutally murdered. I pray often that God give her the grace to repent in her final moments and forgive her killer. If it is His Will, God can quite easily give her those graces in anticipation of the prayers He knows that I am going to pray.

I think it as important, probably more important, to pray people into Purgatory as to pray for them to get out.

i still dont agree with this. whether people decided to turn to God in their last moments has already been determined. it already happened, just like the planes already hit the buildings. it doesnt make sense for one thing in the past be able to be changed- the fact that 9/11 happened- and not another thing- people converting with their last breath.
but please dont misinterpret my comments. i am trying to find out the truth and this is what i currently believe to be the truth. if the church says otherwise, then i will listen up but right now my reasoning is leading me to believe that prayers are of no use for things that have already happened in the past. does anyone know of any good theologians who address this issue?

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

Prayer will not change the known past obviously. There is no value in praying that 9/11 didn’t happen. However, we can pray that the ones who died in it turned to God in their last moments.

I am aware of a case in which a young woman, living a poor life style, was quite brutally murdered. I pray often that God give her the grace to repent in her final moments and forgive her killer. If it is His Will, God can quite easily give her those graces in anticipation of the prayers He knows that I am going to pray.

I think it as important, probably more important, to pray people into Purgatory as to pray for them to get out.

Well said, though I’d make one adjustment. God doesn’t “anticipate” the prayers you are going to pray, that makes it sound like God is a psychic. God stands outside of time, time merely being a created function of the universe, it’s not absolute and is a contingent part of Creation. So God doesn’t see someone dying and though a type of ESP know that someone 20 years in the future will be praying for that person. Instead God sees both events happening simultaneously in His “eternal Now”, for God there is no separation of time between the person dying and the person 20 years later praying for that person, it’s analogous to both events happening at the same time.

 

[WordisLove]

Good discussion, I would love to hear this idea more fully developed.

 

[Yeoman]

Prayer will not change the known past obviously. There is no value in praying that 9/11 didn’t happen. However, we can pray that the ones who died in it turned to God in their last moments.

I am aware of a case in which a young woman, living a poor life style, was quite brutally murdered. I pray often that God give her the grace to repent in her final moments and forgive her killer. If it is His Will, God can quite easily give her those graces in anticipation of the prayers He knows that I am going to pray.

I think it as important, probably more important, to pray people into Purgatory as to pray for them to get out.

I’ve sometimes wondered if it would be proper to pray to change a mistake in ones personal past. I know at least I’ve made that prayer although I’ve been skeptical that it’s proper to do so. Be that as it may, if a person has committed a single notable mistake, and it still impacts you years or decades later, its hard not to contemplate that.

 

[seagal]

I’ve sometimes wondered if it would be proper to pray to change a mistake in ones personal past. I know at least I’ve made that prayer although I’ve been skeptical that it’s proper to do so. Be that as it may, if a person has committed a single notable mistake, and it still impacts you years or decades later, its hard not to contemplate that.

You can’t pray to change the past, as Joe Kelley already pointed out. But you can pray that God could some good from that mistake.

 

[Yeoman]

You can’t pray to change the past, as Joe Kelley already pointed out. But you can pray that God could some good from that mistake.

As an intellectual exercise, the “Butterfly Effect” on changing the past is interesting. For example, I know that I made a terrible job decision at one point that sent me down a road that I really regret. At the same time, that same career I regret also put me in association with a fellow who was very devout, and while I was fairly devout, my interaction with him sent me down a road that greatly increased my devotion. In turn, that had an effect on a fallen away Catholic who came back, and his return sparked the conversion of a Protestant friend of his.

Odd how things work. None of that may have occurred had I not made bad personal decision.