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KathleenElsie
Guest
Yes we are to rebuke evil.
All the while we are to pray for those that do the evil we rebuke.
All the while we are to pray for those that do the evil we rebuke.
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
Why call it evil? Because it is in no way loving to another person to imply that their sins do no harm. This is not some subjective judgement. If I were drowning in a mud wallow with somebody else, I would do neither of us any good to deny what our position was. It doesn’t do any good to debate who is more at fault for his or her predicament or to argue that one’s mud is less muddy than the other. That is precisely the position I am in…and I’d like us both out of there, eventually.
Our theology has no qualms about calling an evil an evil. How else are we to reject the evil and open ourselves to the good, if we make no discrimination between one and the other? How can you see, if you insist on claiming that darkness is no different than light?
I cannot say what judgement God might have on a person. It is not my business or burden to assess culpability. This guy Phelps may not be culpable for what he does. But what he does is profoundly wrong, and that is an inescapable fact. That he may not know what he’s doing does also not change the fact that he is harming others in doing it.
We don’t get more mercy by acting as if none of us needs it. We obtain mercy by recognizing that we all do. Mr. Phelps may be in need of far less mercy than any of us here. Nevertheless, from the vantage point of heaven, I don’t think he’d want to be left as he is.
Jesus didn’t say, did he, that if you have a beam in your own eye, you should rest content in knowing that your brother has only a splinter. Both hunks of wood merit attention, and removal.
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wcknight
Guest
We should pray for the wicked to repent and turn their lives around. We condemn the evil things that they’ve done, but it is not our place to judge their culpability or impose sentence.
As evil as some folks may have been, no one but God knows if they repented of their deeds at the last second. Which brings up some interesting questions. Do we know for a fact that Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot is absolutely in H*** ?
Based on their deeds, one could certainly conclude that they most probably are. There are many stories of folks who repented at the last second. Some of the saints (such as ST Catherine and St Anthony) mention some last second conversions.
Hitler and Tim McVee were at one time Catholic or at least they attended Catholic schools. Yet somehow they turned to evil or at least committed evil deeds. Were they suddenly sorry for their deeds in the end ? We Catholics believe it is never too late to repent. Is that true under all cases.
As evil as some folks may have been, no one but God knows if they repented of their deeds at the last second. Which brings up some interesting questions. Do we know for a fact that Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot is absolutely in H*** ?
Based on their deeds, one could certainly conclude that they most probably are. There are many stories of folks who repented at the last second. Some of the saints (such as ST Catherine and St Anthony) mention some last second conversions.
Hitler and Tim McVee were at one time Catholic or at least they attended Catholic schools. Yet somehow they turned to evil or at least committed evil deeds. Were they suddenly sorry for their deeds in the end ? We Catholics believe it is never too late to repent. Is that true under all cases.
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LSK
Guest
It is a challenge, but remember this is why we are Christians. Look to the Amish people and how they responded to the horror of losing their children to a madman…we can learn much from their ability to live the life of love that we are all required to live.I saw a FoxNews interview with one of the Phelps gang the other night. Then I went to this site:
addictedtohate.com/
It’s an online book about Fred Phelps and his history of child and spousal abusive. It was incredibly disturbing.
I know this people need our prayers, but how? I just can’t get myself to pray for a person like that.
If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
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Neo_Canaan
Guest
And if they die unrepentant? Then their souls get wasted!!
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AndyF
Guest
The way I see it is, if he’s on his deathbed and becomes absolved through confession then dies, and I’m in a state of mortal sin, then I would hope he would put in a good word for me, and I would be greatful I was around to pray for him. You can never tell.I saw a FoxNews interview with one of the Phelps gang the other night. Then I went to this site:
addictedtohate.com/
It’s an online book about Fred Phelps and his history of child and spousal abusive. It was incredibly disturbing.
I know this people need our prayers, but how? I just can’t get myself to pray for a person like that.
AndyF
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
If you do not understand “do not judge” from me, then I don’t suppose you’d believe a man who raises himself from the dead and says the same thing. Or did someone else, such as His Father, raise Him?
I pray for you all.
Yes, I can tell the difference between Fred Phelps and Mother Theresa; they have different works and different coverings over their differently shaped bones of their different worldly temples that house their spirits while on this earth.
The spirits are still human spirits, formed in the image of God.
Alan
I pray for you all.
Yes, I can tell the difference between Fred Phelps and Mother Theresa; they have different works and different coverings over their differently shaped bones of their different worldly temples that house their spirits while on this earth.
The spirits are still human spirits, formed in the image of God.
Alan
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AndyF
Guest
I’m sorry, but I’m not sure what you are saying here, but perhaps I can expand further. I was trying to make the point that while we are here(fig tree), anyone can get to heaven, and we may be wrong in our selection of unlikely candidates. The robber on the cross is a good example of this. Now it is difficult to envisage anyone like this person can intercede for someone else, but the fact remains any of his friends still living could ask him for a good word, especially since they know Christ said it was his destiny.
Credentials to intercede can be bestowed on others besides our designated saints. Those fortunate to attain their degree of beatification are in true friendship with the Father, and how can He not consider the request and grant the grace requested, depending of course on the disposition of the recipient.
I pray to my mother and others I knew departed for assistance. I can never know if they can, but I can ask anyway.
AndyF
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corvidae
Guest
Alan-
Here is a list of the spiritual works of mercy
To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.
How are we to instruct the ignorant, or admonish the sinner if we are not to judge anything about them and say they are no better or worse than anyone else. I mean, as Catholics we even have different levels of sin, saying one sin is worse than another.
It is just something to think about. Perhaps judging in the gospel is not the judging you are talking about. AS far as I can tell, no one has said that Phelps is or should be in hell, but they have called his actions evil. Which they are. Some have even called the man evil, which perhaps he is. Perhaps he is ignorant, but we are to pray for him(the living), to comfort those afflicted by him, to admonish his sins, and to instruct his ignorance. These things are not judgemental, they are merciful.
A lone Raven
Here is a list of the spiritual works of mercy
To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.
How are we to instruct the ignorant, or admonish the sinner if we are not to judge anything about them and say they are no better or worse than anyone else. I mean, as Catholics we even have different levels of sin, saying one sin is worse than another.
It is just something to think about. Perhaps judging in the gospel is not the judging you are talking about. AS far as I can tell, no one has said that Phelps is or should be in hell, but they have called his actions evil. Which they are. Some have even called the man evil, which perhaps he is. Perhaps he is ignorant, but we are to pray for him(the living), to comfort those afflicted by him, to admonish his sins, and to instruct his ignorance. These things are not judgemental, they are merciful.
A lone Raven
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tequilamac
Guest
Honesty is the best policy still. For instance, in my town we have a person who directs RCIA, who is the mayor, who runs the show. she uses lies, gossip and sneak attacks to put small business people out of business who disagree with her political agendas. All of her political agendas benefit herself. She has been repeatedly fined by the fair political practices people. Of course, if one supports what she is doing, one’s way is paved through the city hall and so forth. Her most recent example of living the Christian life was to inform everybody that it did not matter if the governor was pro choice or not because no one cares and no one votes on that basis. And she teaches RCIA. I got so angry with her and disgusted with her friends. My priest told me to pray for her. and to pray for her. But the more I prayed for her, the more I loathed her. Now, I decided to be honest with God. I go to Mass, I refrain from Communion, but during communion I apologise to Him for wishing this person would disappear or suffer some vicarious torture. I see no sense in pretending to a piety that is not there, or a charity that does not exist. God helps us right where we are in life. And this is where I am with her and God right now. Sometimes God allows us to hate our neighbor and we have to work right from that spot, but there is no sense in lying to God about it. I’m with liberalsaved. If he despises this phelps fellow then that is where God has allowed liberalsaved to be right now.
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corvidae
Guest
Tequilamac,
First and foremost, this woman should not be teaching RCIA, you need to talk to your priest, and if he will not listen, to the bishop about this.
Second, I would never want someone to be falsely pious, but I think you need to see it this way. You have the oppurtunity to recieve your Lord and God in a very real way, and you are not because of your attachment to your dislike for this person. You may want to ask yourself, what is more important to me, my wishing to recieve God, or my wishing to be angry with this person.
Also, I would highly recommend the book Perelandra by CS Lewis. It may give a different perspective. Remember, not all anger is a sin, Even Christ drove people out of the Temple with a whip.
A lone Raven
First and foremost, this woman should not be teaching RCIA, you need to talk to your priest, and if he will not listen, to the bishop about this.
Second, I would never want someone to be falsely pious, but I think you need to see it this way. You have the oppurtunity to recieve your Lord and God in a very real way, and you are not because of your attachment to your dislike for this person. You may want to ask yourself, what is more important to me, my wishing to recieve God, or my wishing to be angry with this person.
Also, I would highly recommend the book Perelandra by CS Lewis. It may give a different perspective. Remember, not all anger is a sin, Even Christ drove people out of the Temple with a whip.
A lone Raven
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tequilamac
Guest
Actual cases of righteous anger are very rare. I know this. But I am such a dinosaur, I remember back then people did not receive Communion while despising their neighbor. My particular neighbor sins against commandment eight and happily goes to Communion every week. This is her relationship with God. I sin against the commandment of thou shalt not kill by hating her, therefore I refrain from Communion. But only because I remember when the Church taught that going to Communion while in sin was dangerous to the soul. I refrain from Communion because while I believe Christ is compassionate and merciful, I also believe Him to be the Judge. And I am aware of the existence of hell. When God decides to provide me with either the awareness of how i got off track, or decides to make it possible for me to forgive this woman, that’a another story. In the meantime, i can only tell Him sorry, I do not have what it takes to forgive this woman and would prefer not to present myself to Him for judgement this day.
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AndyF
Guest
corvidae:
Andy
…and all in the spirit of fraternal caring.
Andy
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corvidae
Guest
Very true
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Yes, and I see how tricky that can be.
If we judge, then we presume to be “peer” judges, and therefore the only way we can see their sin is if we pondered it ourselves, at least once. Therefore, we judge ourselves by the same measure. If that does not bring us fear, we have free will to do just that judging. It’s just that such judging does not make this person or that person better, it just means we are in the same boat so we are essentially calling the other sinners as if they are sinners, like us.
It takes one to know one, and so I think the idea is to tell the sinners, “hey, I see what you do because I know that sin… therefore don’t think you’re any different than I am or are getting away with something,” as a clearly preferable alternative to, “hey you sinner, you quit being like you are and become as good as I am.”
In the first case, we treat the brother like an equal, and let them know we see their “slip is showing” as it were. In the latter, we are condescending.
Noticing a sin and pointing it out, I have no problem with. To extrapolate and think that one person is more or less evil in the eyes of God is quite another.
Love,
Alan
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corvidae
Guest
I would certainly never ask a sinner to quit sinning and become like I am. That would be impossible, if they quit sinning they are definately better than I. I do not think that instructing or admonishing automatically means judging.
I would say a better way to look at it is say look at Jesus. Do not stop sinning and become like I am, stop sinning and become like HE IS.
You are correct in that we all sin. However, I do not think we need to remind someone they are a sinner so they do not think they are getting away with something, but rather to call them to something higher.
A lone Raven
p.s.- pray for me, a sinner
I would say a better way to look at it is say look at Jesus. Do not stop sinning and become like I am, stop sinning and become like HE IS.
You are correct in that we all sin. However, I do not think we need to remind someone they are a sinner so they do not think they are getting away with something, but rather to call them to something higher.
A lone Raven
p.s.- pray for me, a sinner
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