Praying to Saints or Mary?

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I am having a hard time dealing with the question…why do we allow praying to saints and not to God himself. As a Catholic, I understand that I am not worshipping the saints, just asking them to intercede for me, just as I would ask my mother to talk to my father about whatever concerns I have. I am also questioning praying to The Virgin, Mary.

Other question arises
Which is better…praying to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit or to a holy saint, the Virgin Mary? What is better?
When did praying to saints begin in the Church? I have not heard this practice beginning in Old Testiment times. I have not heard it occuring during the time Jesus or the apostles were preaching. (Not sure though.)

Help.
 
The biggest problem I think is that we set up a false dilemma between God and the saints as if it were a zero-sum gain. That is, if praise is finite like a pizza and I give too many slices to the saints, God ends up with nothing but crumbs and a cardboard box to feed himself. It doesn’t work like that. The saints are a living part of the body of Our Lord. They are also the work of God’s hands. To praise His glorious deeds in the form of witnesses is to praise Him.

Scott
 
I agree, asking the question about which is better is not really relevant. Like you say they are part of his body.

Of course others say that God does not need help. Why must we include praying to Saints for intercession? Why not go straight God himself?

I guess this is a question I have that was began by questions coming from protestants. I am also looking to find where and when this practice began. Any resources would be great.

Orlando
 
Pray to saints? Nah, I go right to the source - I pray directly to the statues! 😃

We don’t “pray to” saints in the way that we pray to God. With God, we are worshipping Him with our prayers. With the saints, what we are doing when we “pray to” them is asking them to pray for us. According to glyphs and writings in the Catacombs, the earliest Christians “prayed to” the deceased members of their community, asking for their intercession in Heaven, so this is not a recent “Catholic” addition to the panaply of Christian beliefs - this practice is as old as Christianity itself!

“Praying to” saints should never replace the worship of God. We believe that all the saints in Heaven want us to be with them, and they are willing to do everything to see us get there.

If you really want God to act for you, do you pray less often and less enthusiastically, or do you prayer even harder and more enthusiastically? Of course you redouble your efforts! So what’s so wrong with asking a saint to join his or her prayers with yours?

Hope this helps! 🙂
 
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o_witness:
I am having a hard time dealing with the question…why do we allow praying to saints and not to God himself.

Who ever said we do not allow prayer to God? Hmmm? That is just plain stupid…or poorly worded :rolleyes:

We do not have an ‘either or’ mentality. Who says we cannot ask others to pray for us? God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead. Those who are with God are more alive than you or me. We ask then to pray for us

As a Catholic, I understand that I am not worshipping the saints, just asking them to intercede for me, just as I would ask my mother to talk to my father about whatever concerns I have. I am also questioning praying to The Virgin, Mary.

Other question arises
Which is better…praying to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit or to a holy saint, the Virgin Mary? What is better?

All of the above…if you want or need a rule try: start with the Father and keep praying.
When did praying to saints begin in the Church?

There is evidence in the catacombs that shows the practice well extablished…so… from the begining. it is part of our understanding of what it is to die in god’s friendship as a Christian.

I have not heard this practice beginning in Old Testiment times.

In the OT they had a much less developed idea of life after death than we do. The Sadducces denied the whole concept completely.

I have not heard it occuring during the time Jesus or the apostles were preaching. (Not sure though.)

Life after death? …pray for one another…put 'em together

Help.
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Prayer to saints is not worship of them - that is probably the biggest misconception. It is an appeal. Please pray for us. The prayers of a righteous man availeth much - who else is more righteous than those already in union with Him?

We do what Jesus did Himself - pray to those that have already passed. Jesus spoke with the “dead” at His transfiguration, with Moses and Elijah. Proof that those who die in Christ are never “dead”, thanks be to God!! 😃 They are alive in spirit!

There are examples of the saints in heaven praying for us in the book of Revelation. Rev.5:8-14 mentions the elders offering the prayers of the saints.

The saints are Jesus’s friends, just like you and me. Asking them for intercession gives glory and honor to Him. Use then often, get to know them. They are your brothers and sisters in Christ. It is just one more example of the richness and fullness of our faith!!! 👍
 
can you explain the transfiguration for me? I get confused as to what that is?
 
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o_witness:
I am having a hard time dealing with the question…why do we allow praying to saints and not to God himself. As a Catholic, I understand that I am not worshipping the saints, just asking them to intercede for me, just as I would ask my mother to talk to my father about whatever concerns I have. I am also questioning praying to The Virgin, Mary.

Other question arises
Which is better…praying to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit or to a holy saint, the Virgin Mary? What is better?
When did praying to saints begin in the Church? I have not heard this practice beginning in Old Testiment times. I have not heard it occuring during the time Jesus or the apostles were preaching. (Not sure though.)

Help.
Click to expand...
We do allow praying to God there is not exclision here, all we are doing is asking Mary and the saints to pray for yus and with us to God…Praying (IE asking which is what the word prayer means in it’s classical sence) to saints began with the death of the firs Christian martyrs…Again praying to one does not exclude the other…
 
I agree, asking the question about which is better is not really relevant. Like you say they are part of his body.

Of course others say that God does not need help. Why must we include praying to Saints for intercession? Why not go straight God himself?

I guess this is a question I have that was began by questions coming from protestants. I am also looking to find where and when this practice began. Any resources would be great.

Orlando
 
I agree with some other posts. Think of prayer to the saints as you praying with them to God. Just as it would avail much for a group of people to pray to God together on earth for the same thing, praying with a saint to God would avail even more. Just as Jesus said, the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than the greatest here on earth. This is especially true with Mary, the greatest of all the saints. You can see in the Old Testament, in 1 Kings 2, how the people came to Queen Bathsheba (who was the mother and not the wife) to intercede on their behalf to king Solomon who would listen to the queen, his mother. Jesus, the ultimate King, would not refuse his mother’s requests either. Also, at the wedding at Cana, notice how Jesus’ disciples go to Mary and ask for her intercession instead of going directly to Jesus, who began his ministry at his mother’s request.

Of course, you can always go directly to God, but having the saints pray with you is very powerful. Any prayers to the saints always go through Jesus, the head of the body, uniting the body more and more.
 
Actually, I kind of dislike it when people say “we don’t pray to saints…” I know the intention is good - we are making it clear that we worship and adore God alone. But, in fact, we do pray to the Saints. Prayer is not necessarily a form of worship. It is a plea. If you do not have a problem saying you plead to the Saints, then you should ahve no problem with the term “pray.” Just a pet peeve of mine. But I understand the purpose of the statement.

Anyway, I always keep a few points in mind. One is the aforementioned reference to Revelation, so I won’t repeat that. The second is the charge: Pray without ceasing. Well, our Church prayes without ceasing, but even individually, that’s our ideal. Well, I don’t know about you, but I sleep a few hours each day, work, and play with the kids. I can offer all my activities to God, but why shouldn’t I take advantage of the Saints in heaven? They don’t sleep, and aren’t distracted by our worldly interferences. When I am lacking, they can pray to God on my behalf. In my stead, they can enable my prayers to be heard incessantly. Cool!

Finally, remember that we are all fruit of the same vine, Christ. If you have no problem asking someone on earth for prayers, then you should not have a problem doing the same with the Saints. They may not be visible, but they are more alive than we are, and we are all connected to Christ. We are all part of the same body of Christ, and when we pray for each other, it is pleasing to God. When the Saints pray for us, it is even moreso, because they have been made righteous.
 
We are one family under God and as a family we support and help each other just as how others are helping each other in this thread. :gopray2:
 
To understand the idea of praying to Mary, we need to look back.

Let’s look back at the OT. We can find inferences of praying to Mary.

The Davidic Kingdom is God’s model of His kingdom on earth. In this setup, the queen is not the king’s wife but the king’s mother. This is so because the king can have many wives but only one mother. If I remember right, the term would be Gebirah, Queen mother. The Queen mother has authority but not power as the king has.

There are plenty of examples of this in the OT but the one that stands out to me is the book of Kings. In here we see a request being made to Queen Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother. She then takes the request to her son, King Solomon. The queen tells her son of a request and the king tells his mother that he will not refuse her. Check out 1 Kings 2:20.

If the Davidic kingdom is a model of God’s kingdom and Jesus is our King, wouldn’t that make Mary, His mother, our Queen?
 
One thing to keep in mind, especially when many Protestants ask this question, is that to them, praying is the same as worship. Except for the few Protestant churches that still maintain some sort of liturgy, their Sunday services consist of singing, praying, preaching, more praying, then singing. That, for them, is worship, and when they see Catholics apply it to Mary or one of the other saints they conclude we are worshipping them.

For Catholics, as for the ancient Jews, however, worship includes offering a sacrifice. Properly speaking, Catholic worship is contained in the Mass, the highest form of worship there is, and it is ALWAYS directed to God alone. It is worth noting to Protestants that if we worship Mary, we do a poor job of it since we only mention her in passing twice in our highest form of prayer, the Sacrifice of the Mass.
 
Hmmm, let me see. Here are key points from this thread.
·Who says we cannot ask others to pray for us? God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead. Those who are with God are more alive than you or me. We ask the living(whether on earh or in heaven) to pray for us.
·There are examples of the saints in heaven praying for us in the book of Revelation. Rev.5:8-14 mentions the elders offering the prayers of the saints
·Jesus spoke with the “dead” at His transfiguration, with Moses and Elijah. Proof that those who die in Christ are never “dead”, thanks be to God!! They are alive in spirit! – Wow this says a lot. Matt 17:1, I could only wonder what what said. I am sure it began with a prayer, I can hear Moses and Elijah telling Jesus, “We are praying with you. Your task is great.” This reminds me of Star Wars where OBWon, after his death, tells Luke “the force is with you.” By no means am I diminishing Jesus’s place.
·This is especially true with Mary, the greatest of all the saints. You can see in the Old Testament, in 1 Kings 2, how the people came to Queen Bathsheba (who was the mother and not the wife) to intercede on their behalf to king Solomon who would listen to the queen, his mother. Jesus, the ultimate King, would not refuse his mother’s requests either. Check out 1 Kings 2:20
·Yes, I agree there are several areas where we read that the apostles are praying “together”. Acts 4:23-31. The are many places where we are encouraged to pray for one another. I will have to look that up and reference them here. Any help would be great.

There is evidence in the catacombs that shows the practice well extablished…so… from the begining. it is part of our understanding of what it is to die in god’s friendship as a Christian.
Quasimodo, Can you give references to where you get your information?

Another Question…
Who was the first person to be called a saint?

Thank you all for your time…

May God Bless!

Orlando
 
There is one question I have been asked by Protestants that was not mentioned or covered in the above explanations.

Are the saints in heaven omnipresent and omniscient? In other words, do they see us and hear all our prayers themselves in interceding or do our prayers have to go through Christ and then from Him to the saints. I have never seen any official church explanation (doesn’t mean I haven’t missed it) but it is, I believe, the more serious , theological question that I have been asked. Any help?
 
That was a question I had and the following answered that. I have heard many protestants say that once you are dead you cannot come back to roam the earth. An OT story is sited where a man saw hell and ask to come back to earth but was not allowed to. I’ll have to look for that reference.

But here is an example of the “dead” coming back. Not sure exactly how but I we do see examples of the dead listening to us. How did Jesus talk to the “dead”. Do we accept that Jesus was flesh as we were?

Jesus spoke with the “dead” at His transfiguration, with Moses and Elijah. Proof that those who die in Christ are never “dead”, thanks be to God!! They are alive in spirit! – Wow this says a lot. Matt 17:1, I could only wonder what what said. I am sure it began with a prayer, I can hear Moses and Elijah telling Jesus, “We are praying with you. Your task is great.” This reminds me of Star Wars where OBWon, after his death, tells Luke “the force is with you.” By no means am I diminishing Jesus’s place.

O
 
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o_witness:
I understand that I am not worshipping the saints, just asking them to intercede for me, just as I would ask my mother to talk to my father about whatever concerns I have. I am also questioning praying to The Virgin, Mary.

Help.
Click to expand...
A tenant farmer decides to gather the fruits of his labour and present them to the King to pay homage. In his haste, he does not take time to prepare in a pleasing manner. As he is presented to the King, The King is insulted by his straggly appearance and the poor quality of the fruit and has him thrown from the castle. Now the Queen who is standing in the wings with a compassionate, motherly heart takes pity on the poor man. “My dear servant, do not loose heart, let me help you” The Good Queen takes the farmer’s wears cleans and polishes them till they shine. “I will present your gift to the King for you”
As the Queen approaches the throne, the King filled with love and devotion for his beloved Queen readily accepts what is given from her hands. “Who is this good servant to bring me such a fine gift bring him forward so I can thank and reward him”

This is what our heavenly Mother does for us. She takes our prayers and cleans them up so they become more perfect in the sight of God. God may be merciful but He is also all Just, our Blessed Mother is all Merciful, we need her very much!

“Pray for us Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”
 
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Dolly:
There is one question I have been asked by Protestants that was not mentioned or covered in the above explanations.

Are the saints in heaven omnipresent and omniscient? In other words, do they see us and hear all our prayers themselves in interceding or do our prayers have to go through Christ and then from Him to the saints. I have never seen any official church explanation (doesn’t mean I haven’t missed it) but it is, I believe, the more serious , theological question that I have been asked. Any help?
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I think we are not exactly sure of how they will know. Whatever it is, it is only because God allows it. Does he allow them into our thoughts when we direct prayers to them? Maybe. Does God Himself communicate our prayers to them?

I don’t think it is particularly important what the mechanics are. What is important is that God wants us all to pray together, and for each other. This will not stop after death. God will provide a way for the Saints to know our prayers and for them to act accordingly.

All prayers are known to and heard by God. He chooses to use us and use the Saints, just as he chooses to use priests and pastors on earth, and everything else that we do to cooperate with His goodness. It woould be a little ridiculous to think that the Saints in Heaven will be left out. And in Revelation, it is pretty clear that those in heaven have an understanding of the events on earth, even if we do not know exactly how, or in what detail.
 
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