Praying to Saints

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I had a very long and extensive argument of over this subject on this forum back in October; some people just wonā€™t get it.

He kept going to this verse in the NASB:

ā€œThere shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.ā€ (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)

Well, the New American Standard Bible is a lose translation, this is what the King James Bible says:

ā€œThere shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.ā€ (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)

"Main Entry: necĀ·roĀ·manĀ·cy m-w.com/images/audio.gif
Pronunciation: 'ne-kr&-"man(t)-sE
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of Middle English *nigromancie, *from Middle French, from Medieval Latin *nigromantia, *by folk etymology from Late Latin *necromantia, *from Late Greek *nekromanteia, *from Greek *nekr- + -manteia *-mancy
1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
2 : MAGIC, SORCERY"

m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=necromancer

He told me you shall not call upon the dead means you shall not call upon the dead. Given the translation of scripture I used and the definition of necromancy I replied, you shall not call upon the dead, to reveal the future. Means you shall not call upon the dead, to reveal the future. He didnā€™t get it though.
 
Thanks for all of the replies. I have tried them all. The crux of the matter goes to the typical Protestant lack of understanding of the Incarnation. It seems that non-Catholic/ non -Orthodox are theologically a mixture of most of the heresies condemned by the Church.

The Nestorians are clearly represented. Many deny that Jesus is divine.

The Monophysites are represented. Jesus was human on earth, shed His human nature at the ascension, and is now only divine.

The Gnostics and Docetists are represented. Jesus was always and only divine, i.e. Spritiual as in we donā€™t really need either the Church or the sacraments.

Augustine is carried to extreme in some circles and in others Pelagius is carried to extreme.

In all cases though they deny that those who are alive in Christ are actually alive in Christ. They seem to lack any foundation for Communion with Saints beyond those that they see every day.

Dan L
 
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GregoryPalamas:
In all cases though they deny that those who are alive in Christ are actually alive in Christ. They seem to lack any foundation for Communion with Saints beyond those that they see every day.
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Thatā€™s exactly what I went through. I quoted where Jesus mentioned God speaking from the burning bush, ā€œI am the God of Abraham, of Issac, and of Jacob.ā€ That he is God of the living, not the dead; but it did not get through to him. He just kept saying theyā€™re alive for Christ, but not for us. Then I posted where in the Acts of the Apostles, St. Peter raises Tabitha, by saying; ā€œTabitha, arise.ā€ I was still talking to an anti-Catholic brick wall.
 
Psalm45:9:
Thatā€™s exactly what I went through. I quoted where Jesus mentioned God speaking from the burning bush, ā€œI am the God of Abraham, of Issac, and of Jacob.ā€ That he is God of the living, not the dead; but it did not get through to him. He just kept saying theyā€™re alive for Christ, but not for us.
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I wonder where the Protestants find the but not for us part in scripture. I havenā€™t read that before. Gee do ya think, that maybe they were taught that? I donā€™t see it in scripture, so logically I would say it is a ā€œProtestant tradition of manā€ oh wait Protestants donā€™t have traditions do they? hmmm, maybe they do after all.

Your sister in Christ
 
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GregoryPalamas:
Thanks for all of the replies. I have tried them all. The crux of the matter goes to the typical Protestant lack of understanding of the Incarnation. It seems that non-Catholic/ non -Orthodox are theologically a mixture of most of the heresies condemned by the Church.

The Nestorians are clearly represented. Many deny that Jesus is divine.

The Monophysites are represented. Jesus was human on earth, shed His human nature at the ascension, and is now only divine.

The Gnostics and Docetists are represented. Jesus was always and only divine, i.e. Spritiual as in we donā€™t really need either the Church or the sacraments.

Augustine is carried to extreme in some circles and in others Pelagius is carried to extreme.

In all cases though they deny that those who are alive in Christ are actually alive in Christ. They seem to lack any foundation for Communion with Saints beyond those that they see every day.

Dan L
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Greg,
Have you tried Mt 22:31-32? The saints live!!
 
ā€¦as I understand canonization (declaration by The Church a deceased person is a saintā€¦after a very very long process of investigation etc.) means that The Church states this person IS IN HEAVENā€¦and that their lives display outstanding/heroic virtues etc. worthy of imitation by the faithful. There is no obligation (as binding) on The Faithful to put credence on either their writings or perhaps visions.

Saints cannot of their own power do anythingā€¦they pray on our behalf to God. Miracles and answers to our prayers may or may not have come about through the prayers (intercession) of a/the saint. I guess answered prayers and miracles and the reasons for them we can only know once we get to Heaven ourselves and start asking questions if we have themā€¦well something like that!

Regards, Barb, Bethany Place

South Australia. Sun 17.4.05ā€¦0403hrs.
 
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