pre-marriage

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This is certainly an interesting concept.

What it isn’t though, is Catholic. There is no such thing as a “baseline mortal” sin.

A grave sin, which the Catholic Church does teach exists, is not per se mortal unless the right conditions apply.

Quit trying to pile guilt on other people with heretical concepts.
LOL. It is the advice of the saints to make acts of contrition after all sins, immediately.

We must repent all our sins! Every last one!

I also find, frankly, that more sins are mortal than people think, they treat too lightly mortal sins and too lightly their own decision to make them.

I have no desire to ‘pile on guilt’ but I do desire the salvation of people who do not realize that the many go to Hell and few Heaven, and that what we treat lightly in sin is normally far heavier. This is not about making you feel guilt and your troubled feelings, it’s about the facts that need to be faced so that conversion can truly happen.

And it truly has to happen! 🙂
 
LOL. It is the advice of the saints to make acts of contrition after all sins, immediately.

We must repent all our sins! Every last one!

I also find, frankly, that more sins are mortal than people think, they treat too lightly mortal sins and too lightly their own decision to make them.

I have no desire to ‘pile on guilt’ but I do desire the salvation of people who do not realize that the many go to Hell and few Heaven, and that what we treat lightly in sin is normally far heavier. This is not about making you feel guilt and your troubled feelings, it’s about the facts that need to be faced so that conversion can truly happen.

And it truly has to happen! 🙂
Nobody is arguing against repentance and seeking forgiveness.

But you are arguing a concept, “baseline mortal sin” that is nowhere to be found in Catholic theology or official Church documents.

If people are here to learn Catholicism, then best stick to official Church teaching.

I will say though, if in doubt whether a sin is mortal or venial, there is no harm done, and plenty to gain, by making a sincere confession to a priest. On that I agree with you, but it would be more proper to say so than to try to invent a non-existing concept like “baseline mortal sin”.

To plant false teachings, is not helpful and yes, it can add unnecessary feelings of guilt to those not properly formed on such issues.
 
This does kind of apply to me as I need some advice before I go to Mass tomorrow…is kissing/cuddling (I guess what you might call “heavy petting”) a mortal sin or does it count as a venial sin if it’s not actual intercourse before marriage?
I feel wretched as I really want to receive Communion and be in God’s grace but I had a bit of a slip last night and am not sure if I have to do full sacramental Confession first, or if it’s a venial sin and can be forgiven during Mass without having to confess to the Priest 😦
Help is greatly appreciated!
If you’re in doubt there’s no harm done by confessing before Mass. The priest is not there to judge you, but to forgive you through Jesus Christ our Lord, if you approach him with a firm purpose of amendment. He’s also there to guide you and to help you discern sin and help you recognize occasions of sin.

Believe me he’s heard it all. Confession is of course necessary for mortal sin, it’s also necessary if you aren’t sure if a sin is mortal or not, and is even beneficial for clearly venial sin.
 
If you’re in doubt there’s no harm done by confessing before Mass. The priest is not there to judge you, but to forgive you through Jesus Christ our Lord, if you approach him with a firm purpose of amendment. He’s also there to guide you and to help you discern sin and help you recognize occasions of sin.

Believe me he’s heard it all. Confession is of course necessary for mortal sin, it’s also necessary if you aren’t sure if a sin is mortal or not, and is even beneficial for clearly venial sin.
Good advice. Are you a Benedictine? Ora et Labora is a big clue.
 
Another way to put ‘baseline mortal sin’ is ‘grave matter’, so, calling something heretical because the words are unfamiliar to you…

Well.

You know you shouldn’t be throwing that term around so easily.
 
Another way to put ‘baseline mortal sin’ is ‘grave matter’, so, calling something heretical because the words are unfamiliar to you…

Well.

You know you shouldn’t be throwing that term around so easily.
By using the word “mortal” you are prejudging the level of guilt of the penitent, or at least are biasing towards pre-judgement, as in “I think most people doing this are guilty of mortal sin”. It’s sort of like if our justice system said “guilty until proven innocent”. And therefore, if it is not a “heretical” concept, then it at least is in error.

The Church chooses her words carefully. Whether a sin is grave or not is an objective matter. There’s a reason that the Church used “grave” and not “baseline mortal”.

It may seem to you like there’s no distinction.

There is. The Church never ever pre-classified a sinful act as “mortal” in any official documents I have read. But it has used the word “grave”, and used the word “mortal” in determining the level of culpability of the sinner.

Again, I see no harm in sticking to official Church teaching and terminology on this. I see plenty of harm though, in not doing so as it could lead folks into error, and perhaps unnecessary anxiety and guilt.
 
Hmm, I should put it this way, I badly put one part of what I said earlier I believe: not necessarily a formal act after each of course, but at least contrition, repentance generally for this kind of sin or all.

Now in reply to the above… I do not know what to say, but you do not seem to understand what I am saying or what you are talking about, are reading things into it – nor do you seem to understand how the Church generally speaks about such matters.

The Church speaks of mortal sin often and generally. Default mortal, baseline mortal, these are all perfectly acceptable ways to speak. 🙂

The matter of a sin is what we work from at the foundation, mitigating circumstances come in next.

Venial matter can be aggravated to be mortal, just as mortal matter can be mitigated to venial.

For example, all sins of lust are mortal by default, and only mitigated to not be by circumstance.
 
This does kind of apply to me as I need some advice before I go to Mass tomorrow…is kissing/cuddling (I guess what you might call “heavy petting”) a mortal sin or does it count as a venial sin if it’s not actual intercourse before marriage?
I feel wretched as I really want to receive Communion and be in God’s grace but I had a bit of a slip last night and am not sure if I have to do full sacramental Confession first, or if it’s a venial sin and can be forgiven during Mass without having to confess to the Priest 😦
Help is greatly appreciated!
What makes you so sure kissing/cuddling is a sin?
The speaker seems pretty clear that while near occasions of sin must be avoided, it’s not a near occasion of sin unless you always or almost always fall.

He then goes on an on about human weakness (by this logic, spending time alone should be avoided)- his talk of overwhelming desire leading inevitably to fall doesn’t match up with my experience.
He seemed to base the rest of his arguments off of the idea that since dating is a near occasion of sin, this, that, the other- normally I would have sat through it to see if he had anything to say not based off of his sketchy assumption, but my insomnia seems to be wearing off.
 
Wow, surprising to say the least. Mostly because 0% of the people I know, bar none (as in not a single person i’ve ever met, ever) has ever followed that rule to that extreme…and my whole family is catholic and at least half of the people I know are catholic. It was just a thought I have because I’ve never heard of anyone younger than my grandparents who never did anything more than a peck on the cheek before marriage.
Guess you need to get out more. :tiphat:
 
Growing up in Ireland all we were ever taught was that they were mortal sins. I never heard the word grave matter until I came to America.

We were told straight out that if we died with mortal sin on our Souls we would go to hell.

It put the fear of God into us and kept us good kids.

Interesting.

Antrim
 
Now in reply to the above… I do not know what to say, but you do not seem to understand what I am saying or what you are talking about, are reading things into it – nor do you seem to understand how the Church generally speaks about such matters.

The Church speaks of mortal sin often and generally. Default mortal, baseline mortal, these are all perfectly acceptable ways to speak. 🙂

The matter of a sin is what we work from at the foundation, mitigating circumstances come in next.

Venial matter can be aggravated to be mortal, just as mortal matter can be mitigated to venial.

For example, all sins of lust are mortal by default, and only mitigated to not be by circumstance.
Very interesting concepts. But again, not official teaching of the Church. There are three necessary elements for a sin to be mortal:

CCC 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin* whose object is grave matter *and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.” (italics are mine)

CCC 1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. (italics are mine)

“Mortal” or “venial” refers to the degree of culpability (the “mitigating circumstances” you speak of). Whether a sin is a grave sin or not, is an objective matter pertaining to the nature of the act committed.

Also note you are incorrect in stating that “venial can be aggravated to mortal”:

CCC 1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

It cannot be a mortal sin if it is not a grave matter. Therefore a sin that is of a less serious matter cannot become a “mortal sin”. But a grave sin can be venial if done without full knowledge or complete consent.

This is official Church teaching, yours is not. Any attempt to paint someone’s sin as “mortal” means you are pre-judging that person, a faculty which is not yours (nor mine) to exercise. Even in what seem like clear-cut cases of mortal sin (rapist, murderer, etc), final judgement resides with God.
 
Very interesting concepts. But again, not official teaching of the Church. There are three necessary elements for a sin to be mortal:
It is said above that the consent to the delectation of a mortal sin is a mortal sin, and not solely the consent to an act. And so, as fornication is a mortal sin, and much more other species of luxury *, it consequent that consent to the delectation of such a sin is a mortal sin, and not solely the consent to an act. And so, when kisses and caresses and such are done for such delectation, it is consequent that they are mortal sins. And only in this way they are lustful. Hence, this way, because they are lustful, they are mortal sins.

St. Thomas

I wonder if you are just a contrarian, who is trying to prove some point that is hard to see and who cannot admit any mistakes? A person who insists on pointing out error even when there is none and cannot admit his own errors of judgement?

Otherwise I hardly know what to say to you, you still either don’t understand or do not make any attempt to. And you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say and implying meanings I did not imply. Reread what I have said, I have not done what you try to say I did.

If the CCC is all you use you do not understand the CCC.

Apologies are good for the soul.

I will try to clear things up for you one last time.

Theory & Practice of the Confessional:

"The Confession of the Circumstances of Sins.

The circumstances under which sins are committed {conditiones quae actus substantiam circumstant atque in ejus moralitatem influunt) are of different kinds: 1. Some change the species of the sin (speciem mutantes); for example, the circumstance of a vow or of marriage adds to the sin of impurity that of sacrilege or that of adultery. 2. Other circumstances are aggravating (aggravantes) in greater or less degree and gradum moralitatis mutantes or moralitatem augentes and such, for instance, as increase the malice within the limits of the same species; they are the duration of the act, its intensity, its degree, the manner of carrying it out, the particular occasion, etc. 3. Other circumstances are mitigating {minuentes, moralitatem minuentes), because they palliate the malice of the act; as, for example, want of advertence, etc.

If they change the species of the sin. This is the express teaching of the Council of Trent. Hence it is not enough to confess to stealing if the property of the Church has been taken; for the stealing of a res sacra is not merely a sin of injustice but a theft from God and so a new sin. If a child curses its parents, it is not enough to mention that it cursed, for, since special reverence is due to parents, the violation of that special reverence is a new sin."

Moralists give seven cases in which circumstances may change a venial into a mortal sin:
  1. Ratione conscientiae erroneae, when a man through ignorance thinks a venial sin to be mortal.
  2. Ratione scandali vel gravis damni, when grave scandal is given to one’s neighbor, doing spiritual or temporal harm; as, for instance, if a priest were to speak lightly of sacred things - - thus St. Bernard says: Nugae inter saeculares nugae, in ore sacerdotis blasphemiae sunt; or, again, if a priest behaved lightly with a woman or were seen the worse for drink; or if one were to address a person rather insultingly, foreseeing that he would break out into a great rage and blasphemy; or if a woman dress vainly and foresee that some young man at the sight of her will sin mortally by impious desires.
  3. Ratione pravi finis graviter mali, when, for example, a small lie is told to lead a girl into sin. The evil intention may not only increase the guilt of a sinful action, but it will make an other-wise innocent action sinful.
  4. Ratione formalis contemptus legis vel superioris, when a venial sin is committed out of formal contempt for the law or lawgiver, or superior, as when a Catholic on an abstinence day, and quite aware of the duty of abstaining, eats ostentatiously a little flesh-meat to show the slight regard in which he holds the law.
  5. Ratione pravi affectus in rem alioqui leviter malam, when a man is so attached to venial sin that he would commit it even if it were mortal, or in consequence of this attachment would be ready to commit other mortal sins, as, for instance, if a man chose rather to steal than to overcome his vanity or intemperance.
  6. Ratione periculi sen occasionis proximae in peccatum mortale labendi, when the
    venial sin is known, or can be known, as a proximate occasion of mortal sin; a man, for example, looks at a person of the other sex or entertains rather familiar relations with her though he knows that such conduct in his case is a proximate occasion of gravely sinful desires or actions. Even actions otherwise neutral or indifferent may for this reason become gravely sinful.
  7. Ratione cujuscunque circumstantiae quae mortalem in se malitiam contineat; thus insults, proceeding from envy and desire of revenge, may be mortal sins. Hence these circumstances must be confessed.
The following circumstances may make sins venial which are of their own nature mortal:
  1. Smallness of matter; 2. Want of full advertence; 3. Want of consent; 4. A false conscience.
 
OK, I see a bit more where you’re coming from. However in all the “venial” cases you point out, that are lifted to the level of “mortal”, you can look at it from the perspective that the “mortal” sin is not in fact the venial sin “misused” but, say in the example of the small lie to get a girl to sin, isn’t the mortal sin really the intent to get her to sin, and not the “tool” you used for the job?

I think we can both agree that the bottom line is, when you have sinned on a grave matter, confess!!! There is absolutely nothing wrong with confession of even venial sins, in fact one should also regularly confess them. They can still pile up and poison our conscience.

It really is only to God to condemn someone. A priest can certainly help discern if a sin is mortal or not we as laymen cannot; the only antidote to sin is frequent confession and penance. My own formula is: when I know I sinned mortally, confess. When I am not sure, confess. And when I haven’t sinned mortally, once in a while I will confess anyway. And not just once or twice a year. There is nothing to beat the feeling of the state of grace that comes after confessing and receiving the Eucharist.

So while I will not presume to declare someone’s sin as “mortal” even if it appears obvious, I would always recommend confession of grave matters.
 
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