Pre-reformation medieval sects, gnostic and otherwise

[Portofino]

It’s a great poem, whatever one thinks of the political-religious message!

Actually this took place about a century after the Waldensians became Protestants. The best author on this is Euan Cameron, who has written two books on the Waldenses. Gabriel Audisio, who I believe is from a Waldensian heritage himself, has also written a couple of very good books on the subject (though sometimes I think his critical judgment can be questioned).

For centuries the Waldensians were basically “Italian Presbyterians,” but they have now federated with the Methodists as well, and I think have an agreement with the Baptists also. They certainly still exist (my advisor told a story once of a Dominican friend of his who visited a Waldensian church which had frescos of Dominicans massacring Waldensians, and was horrified).

Edwin

Thanks for those suggestions. I had a friend growing up who had an Italian surname and who was Presbyterian – but his religion was through his mother, who was of Scots-Irish descent.

I also have a close friend who grew up in France and whose paternal grandfather was a Reformed (Calvinist) minister; that part of the family lived, at one time, in Switzerland. The grandfather’s household abstained from alcohol entirely, which, of course, was an anomaly for a French family (the grandfather, incidentally, is still in good health and is close to 100 years old, while his son – the father of my friend – is a highly successful executive and something of a wine connoisseur who maintains a large cellar, though he took his first drink only as an adult).

The Waldensians, the Petrobrussians, the Lollards, the Anabaptists – all of those pre-Reformation or radical Reformation groups interest me greatly.

 

[LongJourney]

Yes, the Radical Reformation – such as the Anabaptists (ancestors of the modern-day Amish) were among the first to promote separation of church and state, not for reasons of secularism but rather because they felt that use of the sword was “outside the perfection of Christ.” A state needs, by definition, to bear arms in order to assert its authority, and they refused to bear arms or to serve as magistrates (one reason being that a magistrate could be called to sentence someone to death).

You seem to be very well informed on the subject. However, many of the features of the Anabaptists are a reaction against what happened at Munster. A public domain book which tells the story well is Rise and Fall of the Anabaptists, by Bax. I just noticed an English translation of Narrative of the Anabaptist Madness by Kersenbroch, which is a primary source, generally regarded as top-notch.

What happens when people toss the Magesterium can become quite insane. I started researching this as a parallel to the development of the LDS religion.

 

[Contarini]

You seem to be very well informed on the subject. However, many of the features of the Anabaptists are a reaction against what happened at Munster. A public domain book which tells the story well is Rise and Fall of the Anabaptists, by Bax. I just noticed an English translation of Narrative of the Anabaptist Madness by Kersenbroch, which is a primary source, generally regarded as top-notch.

What happens when people toss the Magesterium can become quite insane. I started researching this as a parallel to the development of the LDS religion.

This isn’t really true. The Mennonite church as an organized movement was a response to Munster, but pretty much all the features of the Mennonite tradition were in place in 1527 in the Schleitheim Confession. Early Anabaptism (the first decade, roughly) was an extremely broad and ill-defined movement. There’s a hostile historiographical tradition originating with sixteenth-century anti-Anabaptist writers which treats the “revolutionary” aspects of Anabaptism as the most important ones, and there’s a Mennonite historiographical tradition which writes those aspects out as marginal and treats the Zurich Anabaptists and the Schleitheim Confession as the core of Anabaptism. Both of these have their biases.

Edwin

 

[LongJourney]

Thank you. Your perception is probably accurate. Just as there were some good rational people in early Mormonism, such as Edward Partridge and William and Wilson Law.