Predestination? Free Will?

[Trelow]

What is the view of the Catholic Church?
Predestination? or Free Will?

Just want an understand of what the Church teaches, I am starting RCIA next week, and teaching predestination would be a big ol’ fat roadblock for me. Lord knows I’ve already got a few to work out, lol.

 

[jeffreedy789]

there are a couple threads, here and in ‘spirituality’, that you might check out. we’ve hashed it out quite a bit this week.

 

[SteveT]

The church has issued a handful of magesterial statements on the subject, but within that boundary there’s room for a fairly wide range of opinions about it. In a nutshell, the church affirms both that man has a free will role to play, and that God sovereignly predestines the elect for salvation. How, exactly, those two fit together, we’re still trying to figure out

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Maybe we’re like kids in a play pen?

Who is allowed into the play pen of our lives & what “toys” (physical & spiritual gifts) are given to us is determined by God. How we use the gifts He gives us & how we treat the other kids in our pen is up to us.

We are free, but only inside the boundaries God sets for us. He determines what those boundaries are (including when we are born & when we die) so He is ultimately in control.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

SteveT:

the church affirms both that man has a free will role to play, and that God sovereignly predestines the elect for salvation. How, exactly, those two fit together, we’re still trying to figure out

Excellent summary!

 

[The_Old_Road]

Catholics believe in predestination (to salvation).
Protestants (Calvinists, etc.) believe in double predestination (predestination to salvation and to reprobation or Hell).

The deueterocanonical book Sirach, also known as Ecclesiasticus (15:5, I believe) refers explicitly to free will. The reason Protestants removed these deuterocanonical works is that they support Catholic teaching (Sirach → free will; Macc. → prayer for dead/Purg., etc.)

 

[itsjustdave1988]

TheOldRoad,

Actually, Catholic dogma insists that God predestines the reprobate to hell, but that He does so passively. “Double predestination,” which Catholicism rejects, refers to the view that God’s predestination of the reprobate to hell is positive, in that he sends people to hell without regard to free will and foreseen sins.

See here:

Catholic Predestination
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM

Quoting for Dr. Ludwig Ott’s *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, *

GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)

 

[II_Paradox_II]

itsjustdave1988:

Actually, Catholic dogma insists that God predestines the reprobate to hell, but that He does so passively. “Double predestination,” which Catholicism rejects, refers to the view that God’s predestination of the reprobate to hell is positive, in that he sends people to hell without regard to free will and foreseen sins.

Technically this would agree with the majority view of Calvinists, called infralapsarianism (The belief that the decrees of election exist logically posterior to the decrees of the fall… I.e… God elects those He foreknows as sinners to glory while passing over some other foreknown sinners thus leaving them in reprobation). The view you talk about is more of a strong form of supralapsarianism (which is a minoirty opinion).

Though confessions such as Westminster do allow for some leeway (i.e… both views can be derived from it), the infralapsarian view has always been dominant and is more clearly implied across the breadth of Reformed teaching.

ken

 

[Trelow]

The Old Road:

Catholics believe in predestination (to salvation).
Protestants (Calvinists, etc.) believe in double predestination (predestination to salvation and to reprobation or Hell).

The deueterocanonical book Sirach, also known as Ecclesiasticus (15:5, I believe) refers explicitly to free will. The reason Protestants removed these deuterocanonical works is that they support Catholic teaching (Sirach → free will; Macc. → prayer for dead/Purg., etc.)

That’s not exactly true.
The Calvinistic view is that those who go to heaven were predetermi9ned to be saved.
The Arminiamistic (sp?) view is that we are responsible in that we have the ability to reject God’s saving grace, hereby not being saved.
This is the view that most Protestants accept.

I myself would subscribe to the Arminianism view. God has offered salvation for everyone, and that we can either accept Jesus Christ or reject him. Thre by the free-will aspect.

Basically the Calvinistic view says you don’t have a choice, that the Book of Life is already written out, and anything that will happen is predetermined, if I decide tomorrow that i want a bag of peanuts then God decided when he wrote the Book that 08-27-2004 John will want a bag of peanuts.

The reason that I ask is because I am going thorough RCIA, and I noticed that “The Elect”, is one of the castes. Just reaked of Calvinistic nonsense.

 

[The_Old_Road]

itsjustdave1988:

TheOldRoad,

Actually, Catholic dogma insists that God predestines the reprobate to hell, but that He does so passively. “Double predestination,” which Catholicism rejects, refers to the view that God’s predestination of the reprobate to hell is positive, in that he sends people to hell without regard to free will and foreseen sins.

See here:

Catholic Predestination
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM

Quoting for Dr. Ludwig Ott’s *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, *

I think I disagree with this. I could be horribly wrong. But nonetheless I wouldn’t defer to Ott (see Blackfriars/New Blackfriars review of this work). Let me refer you to God Still Matters (Routledge, 2003), specifically the chapter on predestination, by the late Oxford University Domincan theologian Fr. Herbert McCabe, O.P. And frankly, I’m really not sure on this issue where theology ends and doctrine begins. I’m going to back off on this thread and do some more reading/studying.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Trelow:

That’s not exactly true.
The Calvinistic view is that those who go to heaven were predetermi9ned to be saved.
The Arminiamistic (sp?) view is that we are responsible in that we have the ability to reject God’s saving grace, hereby not being saved.
This is the view that most Protestants accept.

I myself would subscribe to the Arminianism view. God has offered salvation for everyone, and that we can either accept Jesus Christ or reject him. Thre by the free-will aspect.

Basically the Calvinistic view says you don’t have a choice, that the Book of Life is already written out, and anything that will happen is predetermined, if I decide tomorrow that i want a bag of peanuts then God decided when he wrote the Book that 08-27-2004 John will want a bag of peanuts.

The reason that I ask is because I am going thorough RCIA, and I noticed that “The Elect”, is one of the castes. Just reaked of Calvinistic nonsense.

I can’t see how anyone could be an Arminian - unless one is careful to insist as much on the sovereignty of God as on human free will.​

Synergism is not adequate either - it emphasises free will, without insisting strongly that “Salvation is from the Lord” , not from man.

What I admire about Calvinism is that it insists that God is at work in all the circumstances of our lives, so that we are in no respect whatever outside the activity of God. This does raise the question about how God is not the author of evil, but not, IMHO, any more acutely than for Catholicism; or indeed, any theism which attempts to hold together belief in the perfect goodness of God, in His providence as universal, and in his other moral attributes.

BTW, election is a doctrine of both Testaments - see Ephesians 1, for example. And Romans 8.28-30. Predestination and election are Biblical - the question is, how are these realities to be understood ? In no sense is Calvinism fatalistic - Calvin was well aware of this objection, as he could hardly not be, and he faces it in his book on “The Eternal Predestination of God”

FWIW, IMO, predestination and free will are the same thing, seen from different viewpoints ##

 

[SteveT]

“BTW, election is a doctrine of both Testaments - see Ephesians 1, for example. And Romans 8.28-30. Predestination and election are Biblical - the question is, how are these realities to be understood ?”

Actually, I disagree with these citations as proof of predestination to eternal glory.

Eph 1:

"3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4] even as he chose US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5] He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6] to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8] which he lavished upon us. 9] For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ 10] as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11] In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, 12] we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.
13] In him YOU ALSO, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit…

Who are the “us”, and who the “you also” in this passage?

“Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh …” Eph 2:11

“Us” are the Jews, “you also” the believing Gentiles. The predestination referred to in Eph 1 relates to the temporal blessings accorded the Jews under the old covenant (c.f., Rom 9:4-5 for a similar litany of temporal blessings). It is not predestination to eternal glory

 

[SteveT]

Continuing with Romans 8:

"28] We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. 29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30] And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. "

The key word is “foreknew” in verse 29, which could also be translated “knew before”. Note that in verse 30 “glorified” is used in the past tense. However, earlier in the same chapter Paul says:

“and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.” v.17

glorification for “we” is future tense; for those whom God “knew before” it is past tense. IMHO, it is impossible to say these verses are speaking about the same folks. I believe those whom He “knew before” is a reference to the Old Testament saints, the souls of which have now been glorified upon Jesus’ resurrection and reside in heaven. That is why all the verbs are past tense in this section. Paul is saying that his doctrine of the way God uses suffering to conform us to the image of his son is nothing new - he used the same process for those whom he “knew before”. Not unlike Hebrews 11:36ff. Paul doesn’t say God knew us before; on the contrary

“but now that you have come to know God, or rather** to be known** by God…” Gal 4:9

This being so, IMHO, predestination here refers to the what - the process of being conformed to the image of Christ via suffering - not the who.

My 2 cents.

 

[RBushlow]

Trelow:

What is the view of the Catholic Church?
Predestination? or Free Will?

Just want an understand of what the Church teaches, I am starting RCIA next week, and teaching predestination would be a big ol’ fat roadblock for me. Lord knows I’ve already got a few to work out, lol.

Catholic Doctrine Among the early Fathers of the Church, St. Augustine stands pre-eminent in his handling of this subject. He clearly teaches the freedom of the will against the Manichæeans.
The teaching of St. Augustine is developed by St. Thomas Aquinas both in theology and philosophy. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. Free will is simply this elective power. Infinite Good is not visible to the intellect in this life. There are always some drawbacks and deficiencies in every good presented to us. None of them exhausts our intellectual capacity of conceiving the good. Consequently, in deliberate volition, not one of them completely satiates or irresistibly entices the will. In this capability of the intellect for conceiving the universal lies the root of our freedom.

 

[Tom]

The problem I have with the Protestant version of predestination is that they believe everyone must be either pre chosen for heaven or predestined to hell. That simply goes against Scripture. Yes “some” are pre chosen, examples? John the Baptist, received the Holy Spirit in the womb of his mother, he was prophesied about in the OT. Mary certainly was pre chosen, she was the immaculate conception, hard to deny she was not predestined. However this does not mean all are predestined, or that only the elect are saved. That’s the whole purpose of our Lord Jesus Christ suffering, death and resurrection. It’s for the rest of us, who are not “predestined” it’s not all or none. Sure God has a plan, we can chose to follow it or not, He hasn’t predetermined our fate, if He had and predestination is correct then the death and resurrection is meaningless. Why would Jesus die for our sins if it were not necessary, if we were already predestined?

 

[AnAtheist]

itsjustdave1988:

Actually, Catholic dogma insists that God predestines the reprobate to hell, but that He does so passively. “Double predestination,” which Catholicism rejects, refers to the view that God’s predestination of the reprobate to hell is positive, in that he sends people to hell without regard to free will and foreseen sins.

With God being omnipotent and omniscient, I fail to see the difference. The outcome is exactly the same, the same group of people end up in heaven and hell.

 

[Hesychios]

:whacky: What a kettle of fish this turned out to be!

 

[Contarini]

:The problem I have with the Protestant version of predestination is that they believe everyone must be either pre chosen for heaven or predestined to hell. :

That isn’t just the Protestant view. It’s the view of pretty much all Christians, and is certainly the view of all the great Doctors of the Church. Whether it’s dogma or not I’ll let the Catholics decide. The question is not whether there is anyone not predestined (which theologically and philosophically makes no sense at all) but what is the basis for predestination and how is the decree of election executed in time.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[itsjustdave1988]

These dogmas of Catholicism …

GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)

… have an important distinction from heretical predestination. Positive reprobation, that is, *"*a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits," has been rejected by the Church (Synods of Orange, Quiercy & Valence and by the Council of Trent.)

St. Augustine wrote:

That light, however, does not nourish the eyes of irrational birds, but the pure hearts of those men who believe in God and turn from the love of visible and temporal things to the fulfilling of His precepts. All men can do this if they will, because that light illuminates every man coming into this world. (Genesis Defended Against the Manicheans, AD 389)

 

[Matt16_18]

PREDESTINARIANISM. The theory that denies that God has the will to save all mankind, since he wants only the elect to reach heaven. There is no place in this system for true internal freedom of the human will, but only for external freedom from coercion. The eternal decree of God alone predestines to glory or damnation. The elect receive irresistible grace; the others have an impulse of the will to sin and so are not given salvific grace. Predestinarianism is central to the Reformation doctrine of John Calvin. (Etym. Latin prae, before + destinare, to destine, ordain.)

PREDESTINATION. In the widest sense it is every eternal decision of God; in a narrower sense it is the supernatural final destination of rational creatures; and in the strictest sense it is God’s eternal decision to assume certain rational creatures into heavenly glory. Predestination implies an act of the divine intellect and of the divine will. The first is foreknowledge, the second is predestination.

According to its efficacy in time, predestination is distinguished as incomplete or complete depending on whether it is to grace only or also to glory. Complete predestination is the divine preparation of grace in the present life and of glory in the life to come.

This doctrine is proposed by the ordinary and universal teaching of the Church as a truth of revelation. The reality of predestination is clearly attested by St. Paul: “They are the ones he chose especially long ago and intended to become true images of the Son, so that his Son, might be the eldest of many brothers. He called those he intended for this; those he called he justified and with those he justified he shared his glory.” (Romans 8:29-30). All elements of complete predestination are given: the activity of God’s mind and will, and the principal stages of its realization in time.

The main difficulty in the doctrine of predestination is whether God’s eternal decision has been taken with or without consideration of human freedom. Catholic teaching holds that predestination by God does not deny the human free will. Numerous theories have been offered on how to reconcile the two, but all admit with St. Paul (Romans 11:33) that predestination is an unfathomable mystery. (Etym. Latin praedestinatio, a determining beforehand.)

Pocket Catholic Dictionary - John A. Hardon, S.J.