Predestination - Is It Catholic?

[Exporter]

the Catholic Church believes Predestination to be true as a de fide dogma, it is however understood slightly differently from how the Calvinist would understand the term.

I have never heard “predestination” and Catholocism" written in the same sentance. Does anyone have a word on this?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Since I am no theologean or apologist,I could be wrong,so with that in mind here it goes.God is outside of time therefore he knows the final outcome of souls, never the less he still gives the graces necessary to be able to be saved,but will not impede on our will to make us take the grace.God Bless

 

[bones_IV]

Protestantism teaches that if a soul ends up in hell its because God predestined him to go to hell. The Church doesn’t teach that. God predestines no one to go to hell, people end up in hell because they want to be there, not because God predestined them to go to hell. God predestines each of us to go to heaven, unfortunately many people reject this and end up in hell.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”

 

[rcwhiteh]

The Church’s version of predestination says that all who die in a state of grace are predestined to go to Heaven; all others, to Hell. She does not teach that God predestines some persons to Heaven even before they are born.

God exists outside time, and so sees all the possible choices we can have over our lifetimes; He also knows the outcome of any given choice. However, I believe that He sees all the choices and outcomes at once, and if that is true, does not see what your final state will be because, to Him, there is no future or past.

Actually, this idea pretty neatly settles the argument about free will vs. God’s omniscience.

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

God does see what our final state will be. It is we who do not see what our final state will be.

 

[Pug]

Exporter:

I have never heard “predestination” and Catholocism" written in the same sentance

I have If you don’t go crazy with Thomas Aquinas, try his articles on the topic of predestination in the Summa. Here is a link to question23

In particular, perhaps consider his fifth article there. There is a question about whether or not predestination (to heaven/glory) is done with consideration to your expected merits or not (Thomas thinks not). Of course, predestination to hell has to be understood as being in regards to our foreseen sins/demerits. Else you have double predestination, a no-no.

Not all Catholics agree with Thomas, but surely if he says it, it is usable in the same sentence.

 

[Maccabees]

Pug:

I have If you don’t go crazy with Thomas Aquinas, try his articles on the topic of predestination in the Summa. Here is a link to question23

In particular, perhaps consider his fifth article there. There is a question about whether or not predestination (to heaven/glory) is done with consideration to your expected merits or not (Thomas thinks not). Of course, predestination to hell has to be understood as being in regards to our foreseen sins/demerits. Else you have double predestination, a no-no.

Not all Catholics agree with Thomas, but surely if he says it, it is usable in the same sentence.

I am afraid your link to Aquinas is easy as it gets. These are extremely heady subjects thus the many variants in protestant theology. In what is mystery to some the catholic church teaches both Predestination and Free Will. While both terms are used in protestant circles they are used in very different way and have a different understanding in catholic theology.
Like some have alluded the Reformers believed in Double Predestination (Calvin Explcitly affimrs this, Luther comes close)
The disagreement comes in how catholics view grace and how protestants view grace there is a denial of free will in relation to grace by the reformers catholics view free will as an cooperative element with grace which we have not earned but is a gift that we accept.

 

[William_Putnam]

Exporter:

the Catholic Church believes Predestination to be true as a de fide dogma, it is however understood slightly differently from how the Calvinist would understand the term.

I have never heard “predestination” and Catholocism" written in the same sentance. Does anyone have a word on this?

The arguments on this subject was long and varied among theologians of the Catholic Church, but in a microstatement, it boils down to a most profound mystery we will never understand: How does God know all things, even knowing if we are to go to heaven or hell, yet never interfere with the free will of choice to determine, by our own actions, where we will spend an eternity?

As to whether “predestination” and Catholicism" are ever seen together, try the following link:

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

When reading this from the old 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia, you rapidly get the feeling the subject is way over your head big time! (Well, my head at least.)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Jesus said unto them, “And whom do you say that I am?” They replied, “You are the eschatological ground of our being, the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood.” And Jesus replied, “What?”

 

[Exporter]

Thanks William Putnam,

Am I correct that Thomists contend that some few living men on earth are predestined to Heaven, and all the others must use their own free wills to determine their destination? That no man is Predestined to hell. I hope I can be understood.

 

[William_Putnam]

Exporter:

Thanks William Putnam,

Am I correct that Thomists contend that some few living men on earth are predestined to Heaven, and all the others must use their own free wills to determine their destination? That no man is Predestined to hell. I hope I can be understood.

Gee, it’s been a while since I really read over two competing thesis’ from the two camps in Catholicism on this issue, but no, I don’t think that idea was ever put forth. At least, it is not a position the Church believes in, it letting the matter go undefined, since it is a mystery too deep for the Church to know.

As for understanding, welcome to the club! It is such a profound mystery as how God can know everything, yet not interfere with the free choices we make in the exercises of our free will. If fact, that attribute is one of the artifacts we humans have being “made in the image of God.”

Satan, while he was still the most beautiful angel, Lucifer, in his existence before his test, also had a free will of choice, as well as the many legions of angels who defied God and was thrown out of heaven as a result…

And we will never understand how God would know what Lucifer would choose to do, and not interfere with it…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

• Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Pug]

Maccabees:

I am afraid your link to Aquinas is easy as it gets. These are extremely heady subjects

I agree, pointing to Thomas is easy enough, but the subject is very nuanced. I have not read enough of Calvin and Luther to know precisely how they view free will under the influence of grace. I would guess their view would make the will sort of not free (almost like a person gets converted against their will), based on my small reading.

Typical Thomist presentations leave the will free under efficacious grace, if that makes sense. I think if one grants that God himself made our free wills, then he clearly can move them and they remain free still. He does no violence to the free will. It remains free and goes along with the grace given it.

I can read a whole book on the subject and still not really get it.

 

[Exporter]

William Putnam wrote,“When reading this from the old 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia, you rapidly get the feeling the subject is way over your head big time! (Well, my head at least.)”

I read aprox. 3/4ths of it. It was over my head too. Thanks to all of you who offered a response.

 

[Apolonio]

Alright, here’s what the Church teaches about predestination:

1. God predestines all the elect to heaven.
2. God negatively reprobates (allows) people to go to hell.
3. Man has free will.

Now, the difference with Protestantism is that protestants believe in double predestination, which means that God positively predestines (or reprobrate) people to hell. This is a no no.

The main debate on predestination is this…

God gives grace. There are two kinds…sufficient and efficacious. Sufficient is the ability to do please God and efficacious is to actually perform the act. For example, a fire has the ability to burn the wood. But unless someone puts the wood on fire, it will never be burned. The “putting the wood on fire” is the application, it is efficacious grace.

The controversy is…is grace efficacious because God foresees that man will not resist grace or is grace efficacious because God makes it efficacious?

The Thomist puts sovereignty on God’s will. God gives efficacious grace because He wants to. The Molinist says that God foresees what man will do with grace, and if man responds to it, pleasing God and not resisting it, then it is efficacious. In other words, to the Molinist, God predestines men to be saved because He foresaw it and to the Thomist, God foresees it because He predestines them.

My personal opinion leans toward Fr. Most’s theory on it. I think that thomists sometimes rely too heavily on metaphysics and molinists rely too heavily on merits of man rather than God’s sovereingty. I also think that the metaphysics of modality is helpful in this issue.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I wish people would not say “Protestants” when they are describing Calvin’s doctrine - the two are by no means the same thing. Not all Protestants are Calvinist in their doctrine of predestination - and some pay little attention to predestination in any case (which is a pity).​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Apolonio:

Alright, here’s what the Church teaches about predestination:

1. God predestines all the elect to heaven.
2. God negatively reprobates (allows) people to go to hell.
3. Man has free will.

Now, the difference with Protestantism is that protestants believe in double predestination, which means that God positively predestines (or reprobrate) people to hell. This is a no no.

The main debate on predestination is this…

God gives grace. There are two kinds…sufficient and efficacious. Sufficient is the ability to do please God and efficacious is to actually perform the act. For example, a fire has the ability to burn the wood. But unless someone puts the wood on fire, it will never be burned. The “putting the wood on fire” is the application, it is efficacious grace.

The controversy is…is grace efficacious because God foresees that man will not resist grace or is grace efficacious because God makes it efficacious?

The Thomist puts sovereignty on God’s will. God gives efficacious grace because He wants to. The Molinist says that God foresees what man will do with grace, and if man responds to it, pleasing God and not resisting it, then it is efficacious. In other words, to the Molinist, God predestines men to be saved because He foresaw it and to the Thomist, God foresees it because He predestines them.

My personal opinion leans toward Fr. Most’s theory on it. I think that thomists sometimes rely too heavily on metaphysics and molinists rely too heavily on merits of man rather than God’s sovereingty. I also think that the metaphysics of modality is helpful in this issue.

Any doctrine which organises its theology round man instead of around God, is scarcely better than baptised paganism. St. Augustine is our single biggest protection after St.Paul against such heathen trash.​

St.Thomas does not rely too much on metaphysics, but some of his successors do a good job of making one forget that it is Scripture that is inspired, and not the Summa Theologiae. IMO, predestination cannot and will not make sense if its foundation in the OT is ignored. The use of Scripture is where Calvin is so strong - he never forgets that predestination is founded upon revelation, and upon the acts of God the Revealer and Elector. ##

 

[Apolonio]

Michael,

Luther also believed in double predestination. In fact, I believe that he was a little more extreme than Calvin when it came to free-will.

I agree that Thomas does not rely too much on metaphysics, but Thomists in the tradition of Banez, John of St. Thomas, Cajetan, and Garrigou-Lagrange does.

 

[thirsty4uolord]

Bless You Lisa
You are correct. . I would add only one thing ,that is, it started with Adam and ends with CHRIST. Enternal Life with him should all souls choose is the PREDESTINATION.

Lisa4Catholics:

Since I am no theologean or apologist,I could be wrong,so with that in mind here it goes.God is outside of time therefore he knows the final outcome of souls, never the less he still gives the graces necessary to be able to be saved,but will not impede on our will to make us take the grace.God Bless