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modestobruce
Guest
We’re the various people in the Bible predestined to play their roles? Eg, Judas betraying Christ-didn’t he have to do that in order for His Passion to carry out?
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
No, they were not.
Their wills were still completely theirs, and the choices they made were their own. Mary’s yes was her yes, and Judas’ no was his no.
This is a complex topic, as we know that God is omnipotent, and therefore “knows the future” from our perspective. However, from God’s perspective, all of time is one simultaneous now. From our perspective, God certainly did know that Judas was going to betray Jesus; however, that does not detract from the fact that Judas made the free will choice. From God’s perspective, He knew that Judas would betray Jesus because that it what Judas chose to do.
It’s really hard for us to understand how God’s sovereignty and knowledge coexist with our free will. However, we know that God cannot will evil (as evil is a lack of good, and God is perfect good, so He cannot be lacking), and we know that He desires the salvation of all people, so we know that He would not create someone whose only possible outcome is damnation. That sort of thinking is called double predestination, and it’s a heresy.
Their wills were still completely theirs, and the choices they made were their own. Mary’s yes was her yes, and Judas’ no was his no.
This is a complex topic, as we know that God is omnipotent, and therefore “knows the future” from our perspective. However, from God’s perspective, all of time is one simultaneous now. From our perspective, God certainly did know that Judas was going to betray Jesus; however, that does not detract from the fact that Judas made the free will choice. From God’s perspective, He knew that Judas would betray Jesus because that it what Judas chose to do.
It’s really hard for us to understand how God’s sovereignty and knowledge coexist with our free will. However, we know that God cannot will evil (as evil is a lack of good, and God is perfect good, so He cannot be lacking), and we know that He desires the salvation of all people, so we know that He would not create someone whose only possible outcome is damnation. That sort of thinking is called double predestination, and it’s a heresy.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
There’s some hints in scripture that his betrayal was kind of his fate (disclaimer I am not a theologian, other people could explain this better than me)He knew that Judas would betray Jesus because that it what Judas chose to do.
However, Judas had the option to repent.
When he saw the magnitude of his sin, he decided to kill himself rather than beg forgiveness of God.
And this is after seeing Jesus forgive other notorious sinners, so he knew forgiveness was an option.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Fate is a foreign concept to Catholic thought. Fate implies a lack of control, and a denial of the will’s role in our life.
God used Judas’ betrayal to accomplish His goal because Judas chose to betray Jesus. Had Judas not chosen to betray Jesus, the goal would have been accomplished by some other means. The Jewish leadership was, according to scripture, already looking for a way to condemn Jesus, it’s not like they would have stopped trying if Judas hadn’t popped up…
God used Judas’ betrayal to accomplish His goal because Judas chose to betray Jesus. Had Judas not chosen to betray Jesus, the goal would have been accomplished by some other means. The Jewish leadership was, according to scripture, already looking for a way to condemn Jesus, it’s not like they would have stopped trying if Judas hadn’t popped up…
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Lee1
Guest
That’s a good point.
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Thom18
Guest
We aren’t predestined to do anything. Rather, I find it more believable that, from the beginning, since God knew what Judas would do and how Mary would respond (not to mention the fact that she would enter into a celibate marriage with Joseph), He gave us hints in the Scriptures to “warn” us or “prepare” us for what He already knew would happen.
As an example, Jesus quotes a psalm in which the psalmist is betrayed by a friend. The predestination party would say that God forced Judas to take this role in order to make this psalm prophetic. In reality, God didn’t inspire this psalm only to force someone to fulfill it. Rather, He knew that He would be betrayed in the future and opted to foreshadow it for us in Scripture.
As an example, Jesus quotes a psalm in which the psalmist is betrayed by a friend. The predestination party would say that God forced Judas to take this role in order to make this psalm prophetic. In reality, God didn’t inspire this psalm only to force someone to fulfill it. Rather, He knew that He would be betrayed in the future and opted to foreshadow it for us in Scripture.
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Dan_Defender
Guest
Yes contrast Judas with the good thief on the cross, who having only a short time to live, did not despair but repented and humbly begged for forgiveness.
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deMontfort
Guest
Cue the Thomists in 3-2-1…
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