Prenup agreement

[dulcissima]

It happens all the time. It depends on he judge you get. If not the judge taking all your money the lawyers will. It is just the way the laws are written at the present time.

As we all know their are bumps in the road to just about every marriage. The laws are written such that a secular wife really has no reason to stay during the tough times. She can divorce the husband, take the children, 50% of the assets and also get alimony for most of her life. Could Satan have done any better job in poisoning society and families like this? I think only pornography and drugs/alcohol is more corrosive than this.

This is just not the case. Family law says that it is in the best interest of children to have both their mothers and their fathers actively involved in their lives. A judge or a mediator is not going to terminate a father’s rights without there being evidence to indicate that is in the best interest of the child. Of course, a father who has lost custody isn’t going to own up to his own destructive behavior, but you had better believe he is going to tell the whole world how this heartless woman cheated on him and left him with nothing and how unfair it is that he has to pay child support. Never mind that the wife very well might have never been having an affair, might have made twice as much as him at the beginning of the marriage, might have lived through hell with him being abusive and controlling. But guess what, that kind of a husband is going to let everyone know how this all happened to him, that he is a powerless victim and that judges always decide on behalf of the wife. It’s a good thing that even in family court judges makes decisions based on the evidence, not on the emotion.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

It happens all the time. It depends on he judge you get. If not the judge taking all your money the lawyers will. It is just the way the laws are written at the present time.

The laws are a bit biased against the father having primary custody, but that is a long stretch from losing them altogether. Plus, I can speak from experience that a woman who unreasonably tries to prevent a father’s access to the children can very easily lose the benefit of the bias in the law.

 

[hasikelee]

Ok, I know this is not what you asked, although it is the advice I have.

I have many friends who are Dr.'s, Lawyers, Stock Brokers, etc. (basically have very large incomes). What I have seen, and what has appeared to work best for those who have good marriages and (at least appear) not to worry about losing everything, is those who live below their income. They don’t get caught up in the “we have to live in this neighborhood, drive this car, etc., because that is what all of the other Dr.'s, Lawyers, etc do.” They buy a modest house, or even rent a modest apartment, they drive modest vehicle, etc. And then save (or pay of school loans) with what they don’t need to live on.
One lawyer friend of mine, put it this way; “I don’t have to worry about her taking off with the Jag, because we don’t own a Jag!”
I have a Dr that lives above my store. It is a VERY modest 1 bedroom apartment. She is completely debt free, saving for retirement, and helps her parents & family when needed.
I guess my point is if either of you are worried about the material things, maybe you need to re-asses how important they are to begin with.

I was going to say just this. She won’t be tempted if there’s nothing tempting. Not to say you have to live in poverty…

Also, when did you get together with her? Perhaps what you are actually saying between the lines is you fear she is along for the ride because you are a physician?

Did you guys meet before medical school? Has she talked about her financial expectations from you? Does she have a degree and/or job?

Granted, you don’t want to work hard and lose everything in a bitter divorce, but also keep in mind that if it comes to a divorce and she has been a stay at home mom with no income, no job experience and no schooling, you have the last laugh.

If you are interested in setting up a trust for your kids, that could take the place of a prenup. That way you would know a large sum of money would go directly to the kids.

 

[jman507]

People don’t just lose their kids for no reason. If he knows someone that lost his kids it’s because he did something pretty major to lose them.

At this point in time it doesn’t matter. He could, and he could get the wrong judge who will do it with little actual evidence. In this point in time the worrisome thing is the thing that is likely to happen, but the thing that could happen. Worry and anxiety aren’t often about what is likely to happen.

I will still contend I can understand the anxiety, but that is not your best bet to mitigate the circumstance. Frankly it is a rather poor place to put much stock into mitigating the circumstance.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

One other thing that I would like to add. When getting married, remember you are becoming ONE with your spouse and God. I believe that is one aspect that you & the person you intend to marry should really think & talk about when choosing to marry.
From my experience, the most important thing for me when DH & I were courting, was that we were on the same page on what marriage is and that it was not just about me, him or us. To me choosing a spouse was more than who I wanted to walk down the isle and grow old with, it was who I wanted to stand before God with.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I have to laugh. I know two physicians, and have a niece in medical school. I generally know what they paid for student loans, and I sure know about the cost of malpractive insurance, equipment, continued training, PPO/ HMO listings, etc.

So, unless you have a new proceedure or device you plan to market, where is this lucrative career? I could see it if you were perhaps the inventor of something like the beta knife (and I know that guy!), but otherwise, you are looking down the road at debt for several years.

As the others told you, no prenup. I agree that you don’t sound ready for marriage.

 

[stbruno]

As one who does marriage prep…I would strongly send you and your bride-to-be for counseling. You are not ready to make a covenantal commitment, if you think that just because the stats say 50% plus will divorce that that’s an option for you, then you are definitely not ready to make any sort of committment. That’s shallow if all you are worried about is losing any money that you will earn. When a couple marries, its the families assets…not his, not hers, theirs.

A couple who is marrying, makes vows before God to be married until death do us part…not until I get tired of her or the going gets rough or until I think I don’t want to share anything with her, least of all my property…that’s not a covenant relationship at all.

 

[angelerulastiel]

I can kinda understand where the OP is coming from. Even just looking through threads here you see a lot of cases where people married someone they thought was good, but now they are getting divorced. It is scary to think that after sharing everything for years the person you trust most could betray that trust, cheat on you, and then take everything in a divorce. Just because someone agrees with you now that marriage is forever doesn’t mean they’ll live by that in 20 years. And you may be willing to share everything with with your spouse, but not necessarily and ex-spouse.

It’s the same reasoning why you should make a will, even if you’re in your 20’s, in case the unthinkable happens. If someone betrays you, how do you protect yourself?

 

[cmscms]

When I first read this post, I originally totally sympathized with the OP. I use to date a guy with less ambition than me but more expensive tastes. I resented that I would be the main bread winner and he would insiste on what he wanted. eg I wanted to live in an apartment and have one car to save for a good downpayment for a starter home then move up to a bigger home. He wanted to get married, right away buy a big home and have 2 cars.

I must admit however I though it a bit unreasonable because as much as a believe in equal rights, I also believe to have a happy home left, a woman needs to be in a situation where it is OK to let her career suffer to be able to care for her children and husband. This is assuming the husband is able bodied. If ever the husband becomes disabled the woman goes to work with a big smile on her face because she would then lean on God for strengh to accept his will.

Then when I read all the post about how a prenup means one is not ready for marriage, I saw things differently. Thank you to everyone who pointed that out. From now on I will pray to God ‘Your will not mine be done. If it is Your will for me to meet someone, please remind me to always put You first Lord’

CM

 

[OLHope]

I agree with others.

Prenup=you do not trust the other spouse to be.

Pre-nup will not allow for you marry in the RC church.

A pre-nup could indicate that you hold $/possessions over marriage, you may not be a good candidate for the vocation of marriage if your true christian ideals do not surpass those of your earthly ones.

 

[Rence]

Hi,

I am considering marrying my gf and have a moral dilemma. I am entering a very lucrative and satisfying profession, namely Medicine.
At the same time, given the alarming divorce statistics, I would like to protect the hard work that I have done until now. I am considering asking her to sign a prenup before marriage.
I would never cheat/divorce my future wife, and I trust her enough to say she wouldn’t either.
However, I am afraid of some storise that I have heard. A professional who I know has lost nearly everything due to nasty divorce proceedings-kids, house, car, alminony, child support. Worst thing is she cheated on him. Now she lives with her lover on his salary.
In order to be safe, I would like to sign a prenup that in case something happens everything we have will go into a trust fund given to the kids once they are 18. I don’t want lawyers getting any money from unfortunate situations. I’m not really concerned about material things except someone else benefitting from my hard work. I don’t want to humiliate my spouse or anything(in fact the prenup would punish ous both in case of divorce).
My question is this: Is it possible to get a Catholic marriage with a prenup? Someone told me it’s not possible(which I don’t understand ) but I would like to verify. Thanks.

I don’t know what the folks here on this forum will say in answer to this, but my mom and her hubby were married in the CC and they had a prenup between them. So obviously it’s permissible. And if people claim the CC doesn’t marry people who have prenups I’d like to see the documentation because prenups are not new to the CC. Prenups are quite old. The weathier people were, and royalty included, have prenups back then and even now. I would talk to your priest about it, he would know for sure.

No one goes into a marriage thinking it will fail. But you need to have a bit of common sense and protect yourself and your family in case the worst happens. As a doctor, I’m sure you know that in terrible emotional crisis, people don’t act like themselves.

Just so you know, my mom was my step-father’s caregiver for years. But five years after they were married my mother suffered a horrific stroke that put her in a coma for 14 days, an excellent rehab facility in Chicago for 6 weeks, and is still in a wheelchair, though not the vegetable some resident told she would be due to them evacuating 1.5 liters of blood from her head. She doing well relatively speaking.

Anyway, I don’t know if her hubby lost his mind, or what, but her marriage was over before she woke up from that coma. He took pictures of her while she was incapacitated and brought them to the bank in an effort to cash out a CD that was solely in her name. And he argued with the bank rep until the guy was green. He even tried to take her house away from her, which was in her family before they even dated. The ironic thing was that the prenup was HIS idea, and was quite one-sided in nature. Everyone told her not to sign it. But she signed it in good faith. She didn’t care about his assets which were worth more than $1 million. But the way the prenup was written actually saved her. She didn’t lose her house and was entitled to half his assets that were jointly held, which wasn’t a lot, but saved her in her incapacitated state. And he fought his prenup every step of the way. It took us a year to get rid of him just by following his own prenup. anyway, my point is, you never know what people will do when they’re faced with crisis. I thought he was the worst kind of person ever when this all happened, and looking back on it, I really think he lost his mind. Normal people don’t act the way he did. Today he’s in an assisted living facility, with his own caregiver, withering away to almost nothing. None of his 7 kids or 24 grandkids want anything to do with his care. They must have known something we didn’t. All I can tell you is that Prince Charming turned into a monster when my mom needed him most.

MOHO is to get the prenup done, but to not only protect YOUR interests, but your spouse’s interests too. People turn into some weird animals when they’re mad. It would have destroyed us finanically if we didn’t have that prenup.

I pray you do what it takes to protect you BOTH. Don’t think that in crisis it won’t be YOU who turns into the wolf you know. It could happen…

 

[Rence]

Not that I know anything about any of this, but from what experience I had working with the Fed Govt on child support cases and from the divorce decrees that I saw in Canada and from family lawyers I know, aren’t prenutual agreements about the weath you had to yourself BEFORE you got married?

I mean, once you get married and earn an income with your wife at your side, you are sharing everything 50-50. If you live in a house together and it costs 1.5 million and she put like… $45,000 into the mortgage and you put $1,000,000 into the mortgage, it doesn’t matter. You still split it 50-50.

There are so many other factors involved here. Maybe your wife took care of the kids and kept the place clean and cooked you dinner just like the good old fashioned days while you slaved away at work ( she slaved away at home ). Who’s to say that isn’t 50-50?

One realllllly important point a good Catholic friend said to me before I got married was that you HAVE to absolutely get used to the idea that your finances are SPLIT. There is NO SUCH thing as this is yours and this is hers. Nada.

The way my mom’s prenup was written for her hubby, he got to keep any and all assets that were his before they were married. She got to keep any and all assets that were hers before they were married. They both had property. She had a family building, and he moved in when they got married. He never sold his condo though (long story, he had 24 grandkids and they all wanted it, so he hung on to it). Anyway, any marital assets that were used to improve the private properties did not change ownership. At the time, he was going to reconstruct his condo and give it to one of his grandkids. Anything that was held jointly was split 50/50. They each had their own checking accounts, that was theirs personally and not divided.

My mom’s house was always and forever in her name. At the time they got married, he couldn’t stand the thought of her paying interest on the mortgage, so he paid off the house. Then after discussing how the house didn’t suit him, and my grandmother still lived there, and I still lived there (it was a 3-flat), he decided to do all this construction to it to make it more attractive to him. For example, he had a wall knocked down between two small bedrooms to make a big bedroom. And he had a new garage built so they could both fit their cars in it…etc. His chair kept hitting a cabinet in the kitchen while he watched TV so they had it redesigned.

When my mom had a stroke and became disabled, he no longer wanted her. But he came up with all the receipts and such for every penny that he put into the house in an effort to take the house away from her. But the way the prenup was written, it didn’t matter how much money he put into it (which was HIS idea in the first place), she got to keep the house. If it weren’t for the prenup, both his and her lawyers said he might have won that battle. So I’m really glad she signed it…

It just depends on the way the prenup is written. Usually it protects what was yours before you got married. But it also spells out things like dividing assets, who pays for college for children, etc.

 

[novaslasher]

Rence’s post was an interesting take; I had always thought that prenups were not allowed in valid Catholic marriages. Your post certainly sounds like an exception to the rule; yet wouldn’t any halfway decent lawyer/judge be able to prevent a husband from cleaning out his hospital bound wife, even without a prenup? The fact that he wanted the prenup at the beginning of the marriage is probably a convincing argument that she never should have married him in the first place.

Years ago, I had the same opinion as the OP on prenups. The divorce statistics disgusted me, and I felt it was naive to believe that it could never happen to me. I knew divorce can happen for reasons beyond cheating, but I felt that it was not fair for cheaters to get 50% of marital assets and primary care of the children (and I still do believe that the law is biased toward giving the mother primary care and relegating the dad to Every Other Weekend Dad).

Now, I do believe that life is full of risks. If I marry and my wife cheats, then who is to say that it is not partially my fault in some way? Marriage is a unity, and if one member of the body fails, then all share in the pain. If financial resources are split 50/50 it does give some additional motivation to work through the adultery and toward forgiveness (at least for one party). I think there is some truth that a prenup withholds generosity and trust from the other partner. Love is fraught with risk, and one court document is not going to change that in the end.

 

[Nec5]

The pre-nup is Satan’s hand at the altar. I’m not exaggerating.

Honey, I vow before Almighty God to love you and commit to you no matter the trial. Even if you lose your legs, we become destitute, tragedy strikes, or King Kong attacks. So help me God, I pledge my soul to commit to you before Holy Church and Christ.

But just in case, sign here, initial here, and retain a copy for your records.

Marriage is about trust. The prenup murders trust.

In this immoral age, you had better make damn well sure you know your spouse before marrying her/him. There are no social norms and assumptions to rely upon if things get tough.

The prenup is a gimmicky way out to account for human weakness. Make no mistake. God will not look kindly on a legalese treatment of his laws. There are no loopholes in God’s view of holy matrimony.

 

[Rence]

Rence’s post was an interesting take; I had always thought that prenups were not allowed in valid Catholic marriages. Your post certainly sounds like an exception to the rule; yet wouldn’t any halfway decent lawyer/judge be able to prevent a husband from cleaning out his hospital bound wife, even without a prenup? The fact that he wanted the prenup at the beginning of the marriage is probably a convincing argument that she never should have married him in the first place.

**That’s why I think he lost his mind, and at the time I was too busy trying to take care of my mother and trying to help her survive her stroke. It wasn’t until a few years later that I thought he might have lost it. Before they were married and while they were married, he was a different person and was a practicing catholic. The change in him was shocking.
He acted pretty horribly, very dishonorably, and moped around all the time like a victim. He used to stand over her and tell her, ‘but you were supposed to take care of ME. you need to get better so you can care for ME.’. It was actually pretty nauseating. But looking back on it…I really think the blow was too much for him to handle. Either that or he wasn’t the Prince Charming he made himself out to be.

But look at it this way: The Church is old, we all know that, and older cultures were all about property and dowrys and yes, prenups. It protected inheritances. Think of royalty, and those related to royalty. I’m sure the Church frowns on it, but when big money is at stake as it was in the ‘olden days’, it made prenups common. We, uh, common people? don’t have big inheritances and big money to worry about. So us…common folk…didn’t have those prenups. Now people are thinkng prenups and it’s a surprise and people get indignant, but that’s because we’re common folk Remember, he had 7 children and 24 grandchildren. All of his assets were to be given to his kids. My brother and I were not his children, nor my brother’s kids, and we were not included in his will and trust. And that was okay with us, I mean, it made sense. We were a family, but he had his children to care for too. My brother and I are both adults. We were not offended in any way at all. We didnt’ care about his assets.

To answer your question about the CD. Yes, the law protected her CD because it was in her name only. He could have rolled her in there with her attached to her ventilator and they couldn’t, by law, cash the CD for him. Oh yeah, it gets better: he was about to have her declared incompetant so that he could actually cash out the CD in question. I threw a fit in his office in front of all his employees and his patients (he was a pediatrician), and that stopped right there. He didn’t have the guts to do it. He was making a fool of himsefl and he knew it. But he actually did cash out a CD that was in joint holding the day before she came home from the hospital, but the courts compelled him to put it back until a judge settled their case. About the house, he spent a lot of money on it, and wanted either the house or all his money back. The prenup saved her from having to pay him back or sell her house to pay him back. He may have won that without the prenup.

I’m sorry, but after what my mom went though…what WE went through to protect her and our family, I will NEVER (and yeah, I said NEVER) will get married without a prenup. In fact, my house is already in a trust. And my will leaves everything to my brother and my mom. **

Years ago, I had the same opinion as the OP on prenups. The divorce statistics disgusted me, and I felt it was naive to believe that it could never happen to me. I knew divorce can happen for reasons beyond cheating, but I felt that it was not fair for cheaters to get 50% of marital assets and primary care of the children (and I still do believe that the law is biased toward giving the mother primary care and relegating the dad to Every Other Weekend Dad).

**Well at the time, we didn’t think of any of that at all. Who would have known that this man would have turned into a monster? I sure didn’t see it coming. Can you imagine my mom in the hospital fighting for her very life and he’s standing over her trying to get her to sign papers, and doing weird things? I’m telling you, it was horrifying. To be completely helpless, incapacitated and dependent on others for your care, and the man you love the most is trying to destroy you. And I didn’t have power of attorney yet, he did. Can you imagine how hard I worked to protect my mom and me? We fought about everything. He even tried to circumvent my efforts to put her in the rehab facility. He wanted her in a dump a few blocks away from the house so he could “visit her”. When she was able to write, and reality slapped her in the face and she realized what he was doing, and it didn’t take long, she made me her power of attorney. No one can convince me there isn’t a God because he’s been watching us, that’s for sure. **

Now, I do believe that life is full of risks. If I marry and my wife cheats, then who is to say that it is not partially my fault in some way? Marriage is a unity, and if one member of the body fails, then all share in the pain. If financial resources are split 50/50 it does give some additional motivation to work through the adultery and toward forgiveness (at least for one party). I think there is some truth that a prenup withholds generosity and trust from the other partner. Love is fraught with risk, and one court document is not going to change that in the end.

**Of course I have a completely different perspective because of what happened in our family. One thing I know you all aren’t thinking of is being incapacitated. Your world changes then. **