"Presumption of Mercy"

[BornInMarch]

I’ve heard people claim it is wrong to presume that God will be merciful.

People who argue that, while you can hope God will let suicides and unbaptized babies into Heaven, to assert that he will is presumptive.

The problem I have with this logic is that faith itself requires some form of presumption.

Scientists today have reached the conclusions that 98% of the universe is made of Dark Matter and Dark Energy (the workings of which they don’t even begin to understand, and the evidence of which consists of math equations), that the particles that make up matter can be in multiple places at once (and that they can exist and not exist at the same time, and that even observing them has an effect on whether or not they do), and that motion is controlled by something called Gravity (something they still haven’t fully figured out).
There are philosophers who spend their whole lives arguing back and forth as to whether or not humans have free will, or even if reality itself truly exists exists.

So to believe anything with surety -anything at all- requires some level of presumption. That’s what “faith” means: you don’t know something is real or not, but it makes sense to you and you have hope that it does. It might still be wrong; while I believe in a real and loving God, it is technically possible for him cruel. Maybe he really does send all Unbaptized Babies and Suicides and Non-Christians strait to Hell. But when the Catechism - the culmination of all of the best Thinkers in The Church coming together and very carefully pondering the ramifications of her teachings - calls it reasonable to hope that God might save them in ways known only to him, why would anyone ever choose NOT to believe in that hope?

If you (like me) already work under the presumptions that God exists and that he is loving and that The Catholic Church has the best interpetation of him, why not presume further that he won’t bar people from Heaven for things they had no control over?

 

[thistle]

I’ve heard people claim it is wrong to presume that God will be merciful.

People who argue that, while you can hope God will let suicides and unbaptized babies into Heaven, to assert that he will is presumptive.

The problem I have with this logic is that faith itself requires some form of presumption.

Scientists today have reached the conclusions that 98% of the universe is made of Dark Matter and Dark Energy (the workings of which they don’t even begin to understand, and the evidence of which consists of math equations), that the particles that make up matter can be in multiple places at once (and that they can exist and not exist at the same time, and that even observing them has an effect on whether or not they do), and that motion is controlled by something called Gravity (something they still haven’t fully figured out).
There are philosophers who spend their whole lives arguing back and forth as to whether or not humans have free will, or even if reality itself truly exists exists.

So to believe anything with surety -anything at all- requires some level of presumption. That’s what “faith” means: you don’t know something is real or not, but it makes sense to you and you have hope that it does. It might still be wrong; while I believe in a real and loving God, it is technically possible for him cruel. Maybe he really does send all Unbaptized Babies and Suicides and Non-Christians strait to Hell. But when the Catechism - the culmination of all of the best Thinkers in The Church coming together and very carefully pondering the ramifications of her teachings - calls it reasonable to hope that God might save them in ways known only to him, why would anyone ever choose NOT to believe in that hope?

If you (like me) already work under the presumptions that God exists and that he is loving and that The Catholic Church has the best interpetation of him, why not presume further that he won’t bar people from Heaven for things they had no control over?

Faith does NOT require presumption. My faith in God means I know God exists. It does not mean I presume God exists.

PRESUMPTION. The desire to undertake, or the actual undertaking of, what is above one’s capacity. It is a result of pride, which makes a person overestimate his abilities and blinds him to his deficiencies. It also leads one to expect graces from God without doing anything to obtain them, and even when acting the opposite, as when sinning, the person presumes that forgiveness is assured. (Etym. Latin praesumere, to suppose, take for granted.)

 

[runningdude]

I’ve heard people claim it is wrong to presume that God will be merciful.

People who argue that, while you can hope God will let suicides and unbaptized babies into Heaven, to assert that he will is presumptive.

The problem I have with this logic is that faith itself requires some form of presumption.
…
If you (like me) already work under the presumptions that God exists and that he is loving and that The Catholic Church has the best interpetation of him, why not presume further that he won’t bar people from Heaven for things they had no control over?

We trust that God is Just. God would not sentence unborn children or suicide victims to Hell, unless the alternative were less just.

What could be worse than Hell? Only God can know. We ourselves cannot presume to know that Hell would not be the most just eternal fate. God has revealed to us only so much.

That said, prior to Christ’s death on the Cross, humans who died without mortal sin descended to the outer edge of Hell. Christ himself, upon death, descended here, and dwelt with the just for three days, before breaking down the gates, returning to Earth, and leading the just to heaven. There is indeed precedent for the unbaptized to arrive in heaven, when it is the just path.

However, our actions are revealed to affect others.

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea."

biblehub.com/nasb/mark/9.htm

Jesus warns us that we can spiritually harm others. If no one showed mercy to the suicidal person before he acted, that could have destroyed his soul. Had no one cared to baptized the sick child, that could have destroyed his soul. We are all interconnected in Christ. We are his Body.

If the very Body of Christ does not act to show mercy, what chance does the little one, the weak of spirit, the infirmed of mind have?

 

[fisherman_carl]

Jesus said with the mercy we show others will we receive mercy. Therefore let us show mercy to all. And pray for God’s mercy to all. Let us have hope.

 

[o_mlly]

I’ve heard people claim it is wrong to presume that God will be merciful. … The Church coming together and very carefully pondering the ramifications of her teachings - calls it reasonable to hope that God might save them in ways known only to him, why would anyone ever choose NOT to believe in that hope?

If you (like me) already work under the presumptions that God exists and that he is loving and that The Catholic Church has the best interpetation of him, why not presume further that he won’t bar people from Heaven for things they had no control over?

Universalism, the teaching that all men will be saved, although not doctrinal is alive and well in the Catholic Church.

In the “Our Father” we pray that God’s will be done. St. Paul tells us what God wills.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3-4)

To pray and hope for the impossible is cognitively dissonant. Hans Urs von Balthasar promoted the possibility of the teaching and has been called St. John Paul II favorite theologian. St. John Paul II writes in Redemptoris Missio, “It is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for salvation” (9).

Paul VI in Gaudium et Spes writes, “While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God’s kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass” (1:2).

 

[BornInMarch]

We trust that God is Just. God would not sentence unborn children or suicide victims to Hell, unless the alternative were less just.

What could be worse than Hell? Only God can know. We ourselves cannot presume to know that Hell would not be the most just eternal fate. God has revealed to us only so much.

That said, prior to Christ’s death on the Cross, humans who died without mortal sin descended to the outer edge of Hell. Christ himself, upon death, descended here, and dwelt with the just for three days, before breaking down the gates, returning to Earth, and leading the just to heaven. There is indeed precedent for the unbaptized to arrive in heaven, when it is the just path.

However, our actions are revealed to affect others.

Jesus warns us that we can spiritually harm others. If no one showed mercy to the suicidal person before he acted, that could have destroyed his soul. Had no one cared to baptized the sick child, that could have destroyed his soul. We are all interconnected in Christ. We are his Body.

If the very Body of Christ does not act to show mercy, what chance does the little one, the weak of spirit, the infirmed of mind have?

Don’t act like God’s hands are tied: HE’s the one making the rules. He could let unbaptized infants into Heaven if he wanted to. If he refused to - if he dammed someone to Hell FOR SOMETHING THEY DO NOT CONTROL - then God would not be good and I would not want to go to Heaven.

Power doesn’t justify admiration: only compassion can do that.

 

[mikekle]

Jesus said with the mercy we show others will we receive mercy. Therefore let us show mercy to all. And pray for God’s mercy to all. Let us have hope.

I know a married couple that are not religious at all, but they are extremely kind people, they give money and time to more people and groups than I can name, they are not hateful in any way, shape or form, but they just choose not to be religious or have a ‘relationship/ worship’ God.

I cannot fathom God would punish people like this, but according to some verse, they will be damned, but other verses seem to point to them being saved, so…?

 

[thistle]

Don’t act like God’s hands are tied: HE’s the one making the rules.** He could let unbaptized infants into Heaven if he wanted to.** If he refused to - if he dammed someone to Hell FOR SOMETHING THEY DO NOT CONTROL - then God would not be good and I would not want to go to Heaven.

Power doesn’t justify admiration: only compassion can do that.

The Church does not know what happens to unbaptized infants which is why it simply says we entrust them to God’s mercy.
What is the problem with that?

 

[LethalMouse]

The issue with pressumption is its lend toward something noted in the bible roughly: “do not sin for the sake of grace”

I remember a friend who was religous (some prot form idk) and he truly believed premarital sex was wrong. He said he would engage in it anyway because when he was married and the sin no longer available he’d ask for forgiveness and be good…

I actually have met quite a few people like this with one thing or another but premarital seems to be the biggest.

Anyway at that point it is not that you wont be forgiven but you are no longer seeking forgiveness for the sex alone but that you did so flying in the face of God.

To commit suicide because “eh God has to forgive me anyway” is a double sin basically.

To breakdown and truly be lost and afraid unable to think and commit suicide you may/may not find mercy awaits. But to do so because you command God’s will is a seperate issue.

 

[o_mlly]

The issue with pressumption is its lend toward something noted in the bible roughly: “do not sin for the sake of grace”

I remember a friend who was religous (some prot form idk) and he truly believed premarital sex was wrong. He said he would engage in it anyway because when he was married and the sin no longer available he’d ask for forgiveness and be good…

I actually have met quite a few people like this with one thing or another but premarital seems to be the biggest.

Anyway at that point it is not that you wont be forgiven but you are no longer seeking forgiveness for the sex alone but that you did so flying in the face of God.

To commit suicide because “eh God has to forgive me anyway” is a double sin basically.

To breakdown and truly be lost and afraid unable to think and commit suicide you may/may not find mercy awaits. But to do so because you command God’s will is a seperate issue.

What we may hope for humanity we may not presume for ourselves.
CCC#2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

CCC#2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

 

[Eric_Hyom]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Could it possibly be; that nothing should stand in the way of Jesus loving all his neighbours as he loves himself?

Could the forgiveness of sins hang and depend on the greatest commandments?

Just a thought.

 

[BornInMarch]

The Church does not know what happens to unbaptized infants which is why it simply says we entrust them to God’s mercy.
What is the problem with that?

I don’t have a problem with that, because I am hoping God will be merciful (in the same way I hope a great number of things [such as that he exists, that our interpetation of his teachings is the correct one, that I won’t get hit by a bus or shot by a deranged man with a glock, etc.]).

What I DO have a problem with is when people, even after being told by The Church that trusting God to be merciful is reasonable, decide “nah, I take more comfort in believing that God sends babies to hell because of something they have no personal control over”.

 

[thistle]

I don’t have a problem with that, because I am hoping God will be merciful (in the same way I hope a great number of things [such as that he exists, that our interpetation of his teachings is the correct one, that I won’t get hit by a bus or shot by a deranged man with a glock, etc.]).

What I DO have a problem with is when people, even after being told by The Church that trusting God to be merciful is reasonable, decide “nah, I take more comfort in believing that God sends babies to hell because of something they have no personal control over”.

Well that is your problem not theirs.
As the Church is unable to say where they go they are free to believe what they want.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

What I DO have a problem with is when people, even after being told by The Church that trusting God to be merciful is reasonable, decide “nah, I take more comfort in believing that God sends babies to hell because of something they have no personal control over”.

A theologian is someone who has an opinion about God, but it has been said, that theologians reveal more of their own character, than they do of God. When we say babies are going to fry in hell, this is our lack of mercy showing, and not God’s. When we say the Lord’s prayer we tell God to forgive us in the same way that we forgive others.

A few years ago, a drunk lady came up to me and said, I get into lots of fights and beat people up, will God forgive me?

I said you are probably asking the wrong question, what you should ask yourself is this, next time I am angry and want to hit someone, can I find it in my heart to forgive that person. If you can forgive them, you will come to understand how God can forgive you.

 

[BornInMarch]

A theologian is someone who has an opinion about God, but it has been said, that theologians reveal more of their own character, than they do of God. When we say babies are going to fry in hell, this is our lack of mercy showing, and not God’s. When we say the Lord’s prayer we tell God to forgive us in the same way that we forgive others.

A few years ago, a drunk lady came up to me and said, I get into lots of fights and beat people up, will God forgive me?

I said you are probably asking the wrong question, what you should ask yourself is this, next time I am angry and want to hit someone, can I find it in my heart to forgive that person. If you can forgive them, you will come to understand how God can forgive you.

Eric, you are a very wise man. This post has been incredibly insightful.

The part I underlined is exceptionally well-articulated.

 

[runningdude]

Don’t act like God’s hands are tied: HE’s the one making the rules. He could let unbaptized infants into Heaven if he wanted to. If he refused to - if he dammed someone to Hell FOR SOMETHING THEY DO NOT CONTROL - then God would not be good and I would not want to go to Heaven.

Power doesn’t justify admiration: only compassion can do that.

God’s hands are never tied. I do not “pretend” they are. God would not send a soul to hell if it were not just to do. We simply do not know what God knows.