Priest asking parishioners to thank Eucharistic ministers and music ministry during Mass

[Elizium23]

Perhaps watching this video from the archdiocese of Washington will help you understand music, differing cultures, and proper diversity within the Latin rite of the church.

youtu.be/Y_At5RC2zHc

That video is a fount of liturgical abuse. For starters, I see people standing up in the sanctuary and rainbow stoles and no chasubles on priests. There’s probably more but I’m not watching very closely.

 

[Tigg]

Perhaps watching this video from the archdiocese of Washington will help you understand music, differing cultures, and proper diversity within the Latin rite of the church.

youtu.be/Y_At5RC2zHc

I love Msgr. Pope and understand what he said about the correlation of the spoken and sung word. I have actually been a part of this type of celebration of the Mass although it was not specific to the black culture. The DANGER I witnessed was people getting caught up in their own emotions, rather than anything the Spirit was doing. I pray that Catholics never lose the sacred and necessary moment when they experience communion with their Christ in the silence and deepest part of their heart and soul - when thanksgiving and praise is given, though not with words or any other externals.

 

[MtnDwellar]

That video is a fount of liturgical abuse. For starters, I see people standing up in the sanctuary and rainbow stoles and no chasubles on priests. There’s probably more but I’m not watching very closely.

Dancing, neither by children in the pews or singers in choir, is allowed during the Liturgy.

When someone says that music is miraculous or music is proof of God on earth, I think music has taken on too important of a role. Music is not necessary for a valid fully efficacious liturgy

 

[Jon_S_1]

That video is a fount of liturgical abuse. For starters, I see people standing up in the sanctuary and rainbow stoles and no chasubles on priests. There’s probably more but I’m not watching very closely.

Since you weren’t watching closely you probably didn’t pay attention to the fact the video takes place at rehearsals as well as mass and that there were deacobs involved as well.

Is it your opinion that only white American Cultural celebrations of mass are allowed??

Perhaps you should visit the Catholic Church in Africa sometime…

The prohibitions you speak of (dancing and clapping) are for western culture. Our church is made up of a lot more than just western culture.

catholic.com/quickquestions/is-liturgical-dancing-permitted-at-mass

 

[Rosebud77]

All of this is why I avoid Masses where there is music etc and opt for very early Mass. I agree totally that this is out of place and turning the focus away from Jesus and from the Mass itself. The last time I went to a later Sunday Mass at our Cathedral here in Kerry Ireland, the priest thanked the new children choir and there was applause. It cut through any spiritual atmosphere like a hot knife through butter!The Anglicans fare a little better as they have eg Evensong but even then it can become a performance not an act of worship. Same as my old complaint re the frequent funerals at Sunday Masses here. Let us worship Jesus in purity and awe, NB if it needs rehearsals is it really the place for it? It becomes performance oriented and that is not appropriate

 

[Joe_5859]

I concur with then Cardinal Ratzinger. I do appreciate that many of these people are volunteers who sacrifice their time to contribute to the parish community, and I do believe they deserve thanks. Approaching them personally and thanking them after the Mass is more than reasonable. I just do not find it appropriate during the Mass. Since the priest has begun encouraging applause during the announcements, I have noticed that there have been some changes especially in the atmosphere of the church. The atmosphere has gone from a Catholic atmosphere to a very Protestant-like atmosphere. Since the priest has started to encourage applause, there have also been multiple instances DURING the Mass when applause erupts. Taking for example the song during Communion, where on a regular basis after it has been sung, parishioners will begin to clap, along with the priest who at this time has just finished distributing Communion. Sometimes it will even be after singing the “Lamb of God.” Even further, sometimes parishioners will even shout for an “encore,” and the music ministry will actually give this “encore.” I may seem like I am being difficult about the situation, but I am just genuinely concerned because it seems that human achievement is overshadowing the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice where the Lord is truly present and He deserves due reverence and attention. People are coming just to listen to some good music and be entertained. The parish has become less of a house of God, and more of a concert hall.

I appreciate your concerns. I really do. If I were in your situation, I would probably feel exactly the same way.

My best advice is what I said earlier. Make friends with your priest. Be an ally to him. Then bring up your concerns as charitably and diplomatically as you can. I think some concern is justified, even if this is not a liturgical abuse per se. But you have to be careful about coming across as accusatory. That makes it easy for him to write your concerns off as just sour grapes.

I often find it best to pay dumb. Ask questions as one seeking to understand why these changes have been introduced.

 

[truetofaith]

I concur with then Cardinal Ratzinger. I do appreciate that many of these people are volunteers who sacrifice their time to contribute to the parish community, and I do believe they deserve thanks. Approaching them personally and thanking them after the Mass is more than reasonable. I just do not find it appropriate during the Mass. Since the priest has begun encouraging applause during the announcements, I have noticed that there have been some changes especially in the atmosphere of the church. The atmosphere has gone from a Catholic atmosphere to a very Protestant-like atmosphere. Since the priest has started to encourage applause, there have also been multiple instances DURING the Mass when applause erupts. Taking for example the song during Communion, where on a regular basis after it has been sung, parishioners will begin to clap, along with the priest who at this time has just finished distributing Communion. Sometimes it will even be after singing the “Lamb of God.” Even further, sometimes parishioners will even shout for an “encore,” and the music ministry will actually give this “encore.” I may seem like I am being difficult about the situation, but I am just genuinely concerned because it seems that human achievement is overshadowing the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice where the Lord is truly present and He deserves due reverence and attention. People are coming just to listen to some good music and be entertained. The parish has become less of a house of God, and more of a concert hall.

I don’t mind a little Protestant enthusiasm at Mass, since most Catholics look like they’re half asleep at Mass or reading their bulletins.
I don’t agree with shouting or in any way disturbing the solemn time of receiving Communion.
Before the final blessing, it should be ok for the priest, ( on special occasions ), to thank whomever he wants.

 

[Parisian]

How would the priest manage without EMHCs if you have a large congregation? Our church uses six of them at the Sunday Masses, and they are certainly very necessary.

Same way we did 60 years ago

 

[TimothyH]

Same way we did 60 years ago

Not everyone received every day. Many received quite infrequently.

There weren’t the numbers there are today.

-Tim-

 

[Tigg]

Same way we did 60 years ago

When society wasn’t so fast-paced and impatient and we really didn’t mind spending an extra 8 or 10 minutes in church if there were no instituted acolytes.

 

[KD8TZC]

Same way we did 60 years ago

And there were a lot more priests too, so each parish had a number in residence. I know the church I belong to used to have four priests back in the 1970’s and now they only have one (and yet the membership of the church has remained about the same).

Going back to the music though, we don’t live in the dark ages. Are you all saying we need to go back to Gregorian chants? I don’t think that is what you are saying.

I’ll admit, I do like the traditional church music, but even that is different than what was sung many many years ago. When I attend my first retreat some years back, I had never been to a charismatic mass before and it was hard to accept at first. Now, I love them just as I love a traditional mass. To me, it is just a different way to rejoice and embrace God’s love for us.

As far as thanking people who help during the mass, I’m with Deacon Jeff when he said

I’m sure with all these things, God is up there smiling down at His congregations.

 

[Brendan]

Perhaps you should visit the Catholic Church in Africa sometime…

The prohibitions you speak of (dancing and clapping) are for western culture. Our church is made up of a lot more than just western culture.

catholic.com/quickquestions/is-liturgical-dancing-permitted-at-mass

FYI, here is Cardinal Arinze on the subject. Not only here is African, but he was the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship at the times mentioned in your links

bing.com/videos/search?q=cardinal+arinze+liturgical+dance&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=5E807F90D786265FF4825E807F90D786265FF482

As a frequent visitor to the Church in Africa ( Tanzania) I will state two things.

The stoles were NOT African. The priests there wear what can best be described as ‘conservative’ stoles and chasubles. Standard liturgical colors with simple religious motifs are by far the most common. The One caveat being that quite a number of African countries have received permission to use blue as a liturgical color on Marian feasts. That is not the case in most Western countries.

Give that, the ones I saw in the video were red\gold, which is an acceptable liturgical color, and green with yellow\orange strips. I haven’t a clue on why the strips would be there, they carried no obvious religious significance, but then again, there is no actual liturgical requirement that the decoration on a stole actually have such a significance.

Also, the African choirs do very much sway and clap to keep time with the music. They consider that no more dancing than a Westerner would consider foot tapping to the beat to be dancing.

If you ask your average African if there is dancing in the Church, they will emphatically say there is not.

here is a good example from Tanzania (the Cathedral on Zanzibar). I have attended Mass at this Cathedral (twice) , not during this Mass though.

youtube.com/watch?v=u-xh4yNd-Ps

Finally, lay people do VERY much stay out of the sanctuary for Mass in Africa. Readers and altar boys are the only ones I have seen. And it is very much predominantly men as Readers and boys alone as altar servers.

 

[Elizium23]

Dancing, neither by children in the pews or singers in choir, is allowed during the Liturgy.

Not in the West.

When someone says that music is miraculous or music is proof of God on earth, I think music has taken on too important of a role. Music is not necessary for a valid fully efficacious liturgy

Thanks for denigrating my vocation as a choir member. If I were you, I would take some time to acquaint myself with the Bible, and the highest form of prayer therein, namely the Psalms, which have always been set to music.

Is it your opinion that only white American Cultural celebrations of mass are allowed??

Oh, I am a racist now because I perceived liturgical abuse in a video. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Rehearsals may explain why a bunch of laypeople were hanging out in the sanctuary, but it doesn’t explain rainbow stoles and lack of chasubles. Those are liturgical abuses regardless of how African you are.

Are you all saying we need to go back to Gregorian chants?

Yes, actually we do need to. Because Vatican II issued a clear call for “Pride of Place” for Gregorian chant, being that it is the proper music of the Roman Rite liturgy. There are four options listed in descending preference for music at Mass, and inserting a hymn is the fourth and least preferred option, yet it is a “done deal” in 98% of parishes and 98% of Masses celebrated. The Church has told us otherwise, and people need to stop ignoring the will of the Council Fathers as well as a precious treasury of centuries worth of music in favor of awful junk from the 1970s.

 

[Jon_S_1]

FYI, here is Cardinal Arinze on the subject. Not only here is African, but he was the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship at the times mentioned in your links

bing.com/videos/search?q=cardinal+arinze+liturgical+dance&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=5E807F90D786265FF4825E807F90D786265FF482

As a frequent visitor to the Church in Africa ( Tanzania) I will state two things.

The stoles were NOT African. The priests there wear what can best be described as ‘conservative’ stoles and chasubles. Standard liturgical colors with simple religious motifs are by far the most common. The One caveat being that quite a number of African countries have received permission to use blue as a liturgical color on Marian feasts. That is not the case in most Western countries.

Give that, the ones I saw in the video were red\gold, which is an acceptable liturgical color, and green with yellow\orange strips. I haven’t a clue on why the strips would be there, they carried no obvious religious significance, but then again, there is no actual liturgical requirement that the decoration on a stole actually have such a significance.

Also, the African choirs do very much sway and clap to keep time with the music. They consider that no more dancing than a Westerner would consider foot tapping to the beat to be dancing.

If you ask your average African if there is dancing in the Church, they will emphatically say there is not.

here is a good example from Tanzania (the Cathedral on Zanzibar). I have attended Mass at this Cathedral (twice) , not during this Mass though.

youtube.com/watch?v=u-xh4yNd-Ps

Finally, lay people do VERY much stay out of the sanctuary for Mass in Africa. Readers and altar boys are the only ones I have seen. And it is very much predominantly men as Readers and boys alone as altar servers.

I agree fully, and it should be noted that the video I linked was an African American mass, which is its own unique culture similar yet different to African.

I mentioned African because it was another example of where mass might look “full of abuses” to a stiff uneducated westerner.

 

[Brendan]

I mentioned African because it was another example of where mass might look “full of abuses” to a stiff uneducated westerner.

Part of my point was that African liturgies are actually rather ‘conservative’ . The music is different, and the choir sways, but the vestments, the customs are all rather ‘conservative’.

You really don’t see those wild stoles on many native priests, primarily it’s older, Western priests who wear them.

And I would also suppose that the use of almost exclusively males in liturgical roles would strike a lot of uneducated westerns as a form of abuse as well

If a priest tried that in most US parishes, he would get howled at more than any priest in a brightly colored stole ever would

 

[Jon_S_1]

Part of my point was that African liturgies are actually rather ‘conservative’ . The music is different, and the choir sways, but the vestments, the customs are all rather ‘conservative’.

You really don’t see those wild stoles on many native priests, primarily it’s older, Western priests who wear them.

And I would also suppose that the use of almost exclusively males in liturgical roles would strike a lot of uneducated westerns as a form of abuse as well

If a priest tried that in most US parishes, he would get howled at more than any priest in a brightly colored stole ever would

Perhaps “unfamiliar” would have been a better word than “uneducated”.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Not in the West

Oh, I am a racist now because I perceived liturgical abuse in a video. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Rehearsals may explain why a bunch of laypeople were hanging out in the sanctuary, but it doesn’t explain rainbow stoles and lack of chasubles. Those are liturgical abuses regardless of how African you are.

I don’t believe I even remotely inferred racism. I was merely trying to distinguish a real difference between euro/american masses and African american masses which are american but of a different culture.

I watched the video again and did not see a single rainbow stole…

Also, I would urge you to read through this thread as there are lots of valid reasons for a priest (especially not the principal celebrant) to not wear the chausable.

I think you are assuming all the video was taken at a mass. That’s far from clear, and it seems that it wasn’t. Notice the video of the consecration in the first minute. A fully vested priest and two deacons and that’s it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=298784

 

[Brendan]

I watched the video again and did not see a single rainbow stole…]

At almost exactly the 6:00 mark, there is a priest in precession wearing a predominatly green stole with rainbow stripes.

 

[Jon_S_1]

At almost exactly the 6:00 mark, there is a priest in precession wearing a predominatly green stole with rainbow stripes.

THAT IS NOT A RAINBOW STOLE! That is a green stole with some orange and yellowish stripes. Wears the Red, the purple, the blue…not to mention rainbows are equal parts of all colors, not green with some orange on it.