Priest fails to acknowledge the Real Presence? [edited]

[TBolt1000T]

I couldn’t go to Mass at my home parish this past Sunday for Epiphany, so I went instead to a nearby parish that had a Saturday evening Mass. The parish’s last priest was conservative, so I was thinking that the new priest would be as well. I was in for a big shock though. Just after the ofertory, the priest was saying a prayer, and in that prayer, he said something like, “We can’t offer you frankinscence and myrr, but we do offer you these gifts, which SYMBOLIZE Jesus Christ.” My heart dropped, and I really wanted to stand up and say something right then and there, but fortunately, I held my tongue. Then, questions started coming into my mind about whether Jesus would really be present in the Eucharist at that Mass, since the priest failed to acknowledge the Real Presence. I almost felt like I was back in a Protestant church. I’m glad that I couldn’t receive Communion yet, because if I would have, I would have had questions about whether I received the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

What should I do? Should I report this to the bishop? I feel really bad for the people at that parish, because several of my Catholic family members go there, and back in 1996, I attended my first Mass ever there.

 

[Sir_Knight]

You should have approached the priest after mass and asked for clarification on what he said to be certain that you properly understood what he said. If he did indeed mean what you think that he said, then you should seek further clarification from the Bishop asking the Bishop to explain it in light of official church teaching.

 

[FrDavid96]

I couldn’t go to Mass at my home parish this past Sunday for Epiphany, so I went instead to a nearby parish that had a Saturday evening Mass. The parish’s last priest was conservative, so I was thinking that the new priest would be as well. I was in for a big shock though. Just after the ofertory, the priest was saying a prayer, and in that prayer, he said something like, “We can’t offer you frankinscence and myrr, but we do offer you these gifts, which SYMBOLIZE Jesus Christ.” My heart dropped, and I really wanted to stand up and say something right then and there, but fortunately, I held my tongue. Then, questions started coming into my mind about whether Jesus would really be present in the Eucharist at that Mass, since the priest failed to acknowledge the Real Presence. I almost felt like I was back in a Protestant church. I’m glad that I couldn’t receive Communion yet, because if I would have, I would have had questions about whether I received the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

What should I do? Should I report this to the bishop? I feel really bad for the people at that parish, because several of my Catholic family members go there, and back in 1996, I attended my first Mass ever there.

Calm down. It’s OK.

Here are the exact words for the offertory prayer on Epiphany:

Lord, accept the offerings of your Church, not gold, frankincense and myrrh, but the sacrifice and food they symbolize: Jesus Christ, who is Lord for ever and ever.

Perhaps you misunderstood what he was saying.

In other words, gold, frankincense and myrrh symbolize Christ, and in a certain sense, point forward toward the offering of the Eucharist, NOT the offerings of bread and wine merely symbolize (without the Reality) Christ.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I couldn’t go to Mass at my home parish this past Sunday for Epiphany, so I went instead to a nearby parish that had a Saturday evening Mass. The parish’s last priest was conservative, so I was thinking that the new priest would be as well. I was in for a big shock though. Just after the ofertory, the priest was saying a prayer, and in that prayer, he said something like, “We can’t offer you frankinscence and myrr, but we do offer you these gifts, which SYMBOLIZE Jesus Christ.” My heart dropped, and I really wanted to stand up and say something right then and there, but fortunately, I held my tongue. Then, questions started coming into my mind about whether Jesus would really be present in the Eucharist at that Mass, since the priest failed to acknowledge the Real Presence. I almost felt like I was back in a Protestant church. I’m glad that I couldn’t receive Communion yet, because if I would have, I would have had questions about whether I received the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

What should I do? Should I report this to the bishop? I feel really bad for the people at that parish, because several of my Catholic family members go there, and back in 1996, I attended my first Mass ever there.

There is nothing to report. The Bread and Wine do symbolize Christ before the Consecration.

 

[TBolt1000T]

Calm down. It’s OK.

Here are the exact words for the offertory prayer on Epiphany:

Lord, accept the offerings of your Church, not gold, frankincense and myrrh, but the sacrifice and food they symbolize: Jesus Christ, who is Lord for ever and ever.

Perhaps you misunderstood what he was saying.

In other words, gold, frankincense and myrrh symbolize Christ, and in a certain sense, point forward toward the offering of the Eucharist, NOT the offerings of bread and wine merely symbolize (without the Reality) Christ.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. Even though the prayer refers to the unconsecrated host, I’m still uncomfortable with the wording of the prayer, since the bread and wine do become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ after consecration.

 

[LilyM]

Calm down. It’s OK.

Here are the exact words for the offertory prayer on Epiphany:

Lord, accept the offerings of your Church, not gold, frankincense and myrrh, but the sacrifice and food they symbolize: Jesus Christ, who is Lord for ever and ever.

Perhaps you misunderstood what he was saying.

In other words, gold, frankincense and myrrh symbolize Christ, and in a certain sense, point forward toward the offering of the Eucharist, NOT the offerings of bread and wine merely symbolize (without the Reality) Christ.

There is nothing to report. The Bread and Wine do symbolize Christ before the Consecration.

Both of the above statements are true, that is indeed the prayer as I heard it. Remember that the prayer does NOT refer to the Gifts of bread and wine as symbolising Christ, but it refers instead to the Magi’s gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh as symbolising Him. There’s no Memorialism of any kind involved here.

You certainly can’t say that the bread and wine ARE Christ prior to the consecration - since they have not yet been transubstantiated into Him. So the most one could say is that they will become Christ, and it is certainly not incorrect to say prior to Consecration that they symbolise Him.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The wording of that prayer still sounds a little Zwinglian to me. Since the gifts actually become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, wouldn’t it be wrong to say that they symbolize Jesus, or is that prayer referring to the unconsecrated host?

**The context of the Offertory clearly shows the prayer is referring to the unconsecrated bread.

The present English version, I admit, is rather weak. Here’s an older translation of the prayer:

We beseech thee, O Lord, mercifully to look upon the oblation of thy Church: wherein no longer offering gold and frankincense and myrrh, we sacrifice and receive him who by those gifts was mystically signified, even Jesus Christ…

This better?**

 

[TBolt1000T]

Thanks to everyone who clarified that for me.

If a mod is reading this, please feel free to change the title of this thread, since my overzealousness as a new convert got in the way.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thanks for clarifying that for me. Even though the prayer refers to the unconsecrated host, I’m still uncomfortable with the wording of the prayer, since the bread and wine do become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ after consecration.

The Eucharist is Sign and Symbol and Reality. It is all 3. Saying that it is a symbol is not necessarily to deny that it is also the Real Presence. Certainly, it is possible to say that it’s a symbol only (possible, but wrong), yet keep in mind that one does not exclude the other.

I think this is simply a matter of hearing the words of the offertory prayer and misunderstanding what was being said–and yes, the words themselves as they appear in the English translation are somewhat confusing.

See St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Question #60 “What is a Sacrament” sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum512.htm

As stated above a sacrament properly speaking is that which is ordained to signify our sanctification. In which three things may be considered; viz. the very cause of our sanctification, which is Christ’s passion; the form of our sanctification, which is grace and the virtues; and the ultimate end of our sanctification, which is eternal life. And all these are signified by the sacraments. Consequently a sacrament is a sign that is both a reminder of the past, i.e. the passion of Christ; and an indication of that which is effected in us by Christ’s passion, i.e. grace; and a prognostic, that is, a foretelling of future glory.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m still not clear on something. Looking at the words of the offertory prayer (either translation), does the word “symbol” refer to the bread and wine, or does it refer to the 3 gifts of the maji?

Of course, the prayer itself, overall, refers to the Eucharist. But I believe that the specific wording means that gold, frankincense and myrrh are themselves symbols of Christ, and symbols of the Eucharist. Could be wrong, of course, and would appreciate some discussion, but that’s still how I read it. What are everyone’s thoughts?

 

[The_Prodigal]

In the 1962 Roman Missal, this is the Secret. I quote from Father John Zuhlsdorf’s remarks in his blog, along with his translation.WDTPRS:

SECRET (1962MR):
Ecclesiae tuae, quaesumus, Domine, dona propitius intuere, quibus non iam aurum, thus et myrrha profertur, sed quod eisdem muneribus declaratur, immolatur et sumitur, Iesus Christus.

This prayer, also in the ancient Gregorian Sacramentary, happily survived as the Super Oblata for Epiphany in the Novus Ordo. Notice all the passive forms (-tur). They provide an excellent internal cohesion and create a powerful climax at the end when the Holy Name suddenly comes to our ears… like a little epiphany

Note the two different words for “gift”: donum and munus. The L&S says that in classical Latin literature donum is associated with gifts of incense in a passage from the Aeneid of Virgil: dona turea (6, 225). The verb sumo is basically “to take, take up, lay hold of, assume.” In some contexts it can be also “consume”. Declaro is “to make clear, plain, evident (by disclosing, uncovering), to show, manifest, declare.”

LITERAL TRANSLATION
Graciously gaze down, we beseech You, O Lord, upon the gifts of Your Church, in which gold, frankincense, and myrrh are no longer laid before You, but rather that which is revealed, sacrificed and received by means of those same gifts, Jesus Christ.

The tokens brought by the Magi, representing the hopes of the nations of the earth, were “types”, foreshadows of the Lord who would offer Himself on the Cross. Fathers of the Church and medieval writers such as Jacobus de Voragine (+1298) wrote with creativity and insight about these symbols. Gold symbolizes the kingship of God, to be mirrored in the purity our hearts which are so precious to Christ and which He as King desires for His throne. Frankincense symbolizes Christ’s divinity because only God should receive sacrifices. The burning of something so precious reminds us of the utter immolation to which Christ submitted Himself on our behalf. The total destruction of incense produces smoke, which rises like our prayers upward to God. During a Traditional High Mass the priest incenses the altar while saying quietly, “May this incense, which Thou hast blessed, O Lord, ascend to Thee, and may Thy mercy descend upon us. Let my prayer, O Lord, be directed as incense in Thy sight: the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice. Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth, and a door round about my lips. May my heart not incline to evil words, to make excuses for sins. May the Lord enkindle within us the fire of His love, and the flame of everlasting charity. Amen.” This prayer was done away with in the Novus Ordo, as were many references to sin. Myrrh, the balm used to prepare the bodies of the dead, underscores Christ’s humanity, through which He endured suffering and then resurrection. The Offertory prayers help the attentive Christian dispose himself for an encounter with mystery.

I think the Father Zuhlsdorf’'s translation makes the original construction clear: eisdem muneribus declaratur… Iesus Christus = by those same gifts Jesus Christ is revealed. The gifts of the Magi symbolize Jesus Christ himself.

The introduction of the notion of** food **(not present at all in the original Latin) in the Novus Ordo just makes the sense a bit confusing, as you point out.

 

[The_Prodigal]

In the 1962 Roman Missal, this is the Secret. I quote from Father John Zuhlsdorf’s remarks in his blog (WDTPRS), along with his translation:

SECRET (1962MR):
Ecclesiae tuae, quaesumus, Domine, dona propitius intuere, quibus non iam aurum, thus et myrrha profertur, sed quod eisdem muneribus declaratur, immolatur et sumitur, Iesus Christus.

This prayer, also in the ancient Gregorian Sacramentary, happily survived as the Super Oblata for Epiphany in the Novus Ordo. Notice all the passive forms (-tur). They provide an excellent internal cohesion and create a powerful climax at the end when the Holy Name suddenly comes to our ears… like a little epiphany

Note the two different words for “gift”: donum and munus. The L&S says that in classical Latin literature donum is associated with gifts of incense in a passage from the Aeneid of Virgil: dona turea (6, 225). The verb sumo is basically “to take, take up, lay hold of, assume.” In some contexts it can be also “consume”. Declaro is “to make clear, plain, evident (by disclosing, uncovering), to show, manifest, declare.”

LITERAL TRANSLATION
Graciously gaze down, we beseech You, O Lord, upon the gifts of Your Church, in which gold, frankincense, and myrrh are no longer laid before You, but rather that which is revealed, sacrificed and received by means of those same gifts, Jesus Christ.

The tokens brought by the Magi, representing the hopes of the nations of the earth, were “types”, foreshadows of the Lord who would offer Himself on the Cross. Fathers of the Church and medieval writers such as Jacobus de Voragine (+1298) wrote with creativity and insight about these symbols. Gold symbolizes the kingship of God, to be mirrored in the purity our hearts which are so precious to Christ and which He as King desires for His throne. Frankincense symbolizes Christ’s divinity because only God should receive sacrifices. The burning of something so precious reminds us of the utter immolation to which Christ submitted Himself on our behalf. The total destruction of incense produces smoke, which rises like our prayers upward to God. During a Traditional High Mass the priest incenses the altar while saying quietly, “May this incense, which Thou hast blessed, O Lord, ascend to Thee, and may Thy mercy descend upon us. Let my prayer, O Lord, be directed as incense in Thy sight: the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice. Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth, and a door round about my lips. May my heart not incline to evil words, to make excuses for sins. May the Lord enkindle within us the fire of His love, and the flame of everlasting charity. Amen.” This prayer was done away with in the Novus Ordo, as were many references to sin. Myrrh, the balm used to prepare the bodies of the dead, underscores Christ’s humanity, through which He endured suffering and then resurrection. The Offertory prayers help the attentive Christian dispose himself for an encounter with mystery.

I think the Father Zuhlsdorf’'s translation makes the original construction clear: eisdem muneribus declaratur… Iesus Christus = by those same gifts Jesus Christ is revealed.

(I.e. by the bread and wine, Jesus Christ is revealed).

Interesting is the change from donum to munus, as Father Z. points out. (To avoid repetition?)

In looking through my 1962 missal I can find many instances in the Secret prayers of the gifts referred to as munera, but none other than in this Mass in which they are referred to as dona.

• But then, I did not look at every single Secret -

Perhaps Father Z. is on to something when he refers to classical Latin connotations of donum as (incense) offering, especially relevant in the context of the gifts of the Magi.

Clearly, there is multivalence in the original that has not been lost in translation! (Although, to be sure, the original syntax has been completely reworked into the Novus Ordo prayer).

 

[PaulJason]

Do not be so hard on yourself. I heard the thing in Mass and my ears picked up too. Maybe it was Gods way of telling me I was not paying close enough attention.

 

[quiet52]

Fully participating in the Mass is hard work! Sometimes I “don’t listen fast enough” and wonder about the words I think I hear the priest read – and wish I can ask him to repeat.
I too was a little thrown by the words of this prayer during Mass on Sunday – but then just assumed “symbolize” was referring to the Magi’s gifts and what they represent: Christ’s kingship – gold; His divinity (and our worshiping him) – frankincense; and His humanness and death – myrrh.

 

[pnewton]

If nothing else, this shows why comments made either in the prayers or a homily must be taken in the larger context of catechisis from the pulpit (and altar, in this case). If a priest is constantly hammering home the doctrine of the Real Presence, he can talk about symbolism, even in the bread and wine, without leading to his parish to doubt the teaching of the Church. As Fr. David pointed out, “the Eucharist is Sign and Symbol and Reality.” If you ever feel something is being said somewhat ambiguous, then mention it to your priest. If several people had the same confusion, then it is an opportunity for him to clarify and expound on Church teaching. The parish will be better educated and the priest can use feedback to improve his ability to communicate.