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4givemeasinner
Guest
If a priest is in a state of mortal sin, are the sacraments we does inthis state invalid?
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BcuzISaidSo
Guest
Nope. The state of a priest’s soul has no impact on the validity of the sacraments.
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catholictiger
Guest
there is a latin phrase that says Ex opere operato, or from the work done, this means that the effect the sacrament will carry out is not from the holiness of the priest rather from Christ. So as long as a priest has the intent to do what the church wills and he does the correct form and matter the sacrament is valid 
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ChibiViolet
Guest
What if he is automatically excomunicated and the Church doesn’t know about it? Would the sacraments be valid in that (hypothetical) case?there is a latin phrase that says Ex opere operato, or from the work done, this means that the effect the sacrament will carry out is not from the holiness of the priest rather from Christ. So as long as a priest has the intent to do what the church wills and he does the correct form and matter the sacrament is valid
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IbnFiktur
Guest
This issue was settled in the 5th century. People called “Donatists” claimed that bishops who publically renounced their Christianity during Roman persecutions (but then returned to their office when the prrsecutions were over) ceased to hold the office anymore, and that literally thousands of priestly ordinations were then invalid. This was declared a heresy, and one that St. Augustine was instrumental in putting a stop to. The office is what’s important, not the state of the office-holder’s soul.
And as far as I know, only the hierarchy has the power to remove someone from the office. The individual himself can’t.
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ChibiViolet
Guest
I was not thinking of a man no longer being a priest, but that his ability to act in *Persona Christi *would perhaps be gone from him (or lying dormant within him) until he repented of whatever it was that got him automatically excommunitcated in the first place and I was thinking of a worst case scenerio.
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Vico
Guest
The sacrament would be valid even when in moral sin, of if a minister lacked faith in the sacrament because it is enough for him to intend to do what the Church does when administrating this sacrament, per the Council of Trent. Also see these canons: CIC
Can. 916
A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible.
Can. 1352
§1. If a penalty prohibits the reception of the sacraments or sacramentals, the prohibition is suspended as long as the offender is in danger of death.
§2. The obligation to observe an undeclared latae sententiae penalty which is not notorious in the place where the offender is present, is suspended totally or partially whenever the offender cannot observe it without danger of grave scandal or infamy.
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IbnFiktur
Guest
Well the concept of “it’s the office, not the man” that earlier posters were referring to developed out of response to this heresy. Think about the possible implications of what would happen if a priest could not perform valid sacraments while in sin:
Consider if a Pope were in mortal sin (given why we know about some Popes in history, this is not unlikely). Any time he appointed a bishop it would be invalid, and any priest that said bishop ordained would be invalid (because the bishop isn’t really a bishop), and therefore there are massive holes in the clergy and by today we really have no idea who is a “real” priest and who isn’t.
This was one of Augustine’s arguments, and to my knowledge it’s still held today. Or at least if it’s not, we’re all in big trouble!
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Bakmoon
Guest
This matter was addressed. The decision was that even if they are in mortal sin, their sacraments remained valid. In other words, God won’t deprive the faithful of the sacraments just because of a bad Priest or Bishop.
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catholictiger
Guest
I wouldn’t think so
be shocked if this was the case.
the only way a priest can make the mass invalid is if he does one of three things.
he uses the wrong form, for example not saying this is my body this is my blood. I’m not sure if this would fit in form or matter but not consuming both species would make it invalid.
if he uses the wrong matter, like using grape juice, or using a cracker instead of a host.
lastly if he actively sets his will against the effects of the sacraments. Saying in his heart I do not will to do what the church wills.
its rare for you to find an invalid mass, and if it happens it usually is easy to spot, with the exception of the third case. But alot of times even if the mass is invalid the people somehow still get the grace. There is a name for it I just forget it.
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catholictiger
Guest
a priest is a priest forever, and ever if he is banished by the church, forgot the word, he can still admister the sacraments the church just doesn’t want him to.
plus your getting into the holiness of the priest when ever you do that you are going in the wrong direction. Christ makes all sacraments carry out their effects the priest is the hammer for christ as long as the priest does his job in what he is called to do, the effects are carried out even if he is in serious mortal sin.
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ChibiViolet
Guest
I was not just talking about mortal sin, but the worst kind of mortal sin, which would then lead to automatic excommunication and I’m not talking about a priest losing their office exactly.
Also, what if their intentions were wrong in addition to this, as in, their just putting on a façade since they had a very bad life style change?
Also, what if their intentions were wrong in addition to this, as in, their just putting on a façade since they had a very bad life style change?
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catholictiger
Guest
even the WORST mortal sin cannot make the sacrament invalid.
as far as the intent goes if they say I will to do what the church does even though I know I’m living a horrible life and I shouldn’t be doing this. The sacrament is valid. The only way a priest can make a sacrament invalid by his intent is if he actively sets his will against it. Its a hard thing to do, you have to sit there while going through the motions and say in your heart, even though I am doing this I don’t will to do it. The point is that most catholics will go their entire lives without seeing one invalid mass, I’m pretty sure anyway.
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Daizies
Guest
If I understand the question, I think that this imaginary scenario would describe it well. Let us say that a priest helps a female parishioner obtain an abortion, thus incurring an automatic excommunication. So he is still a priest, but is excommunicated by his actions. In such a case, when he gives absolution or says Mass, are the sacraments still valid? Would this also be covered under the principle of “it’s the office not the man”?
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ChibiViolet
Guest
Okay then, well what if he is against it–in a different way–he having the intent to do something later–the same thing he’s been doing and it involves this Sacarment. (I like to be as vauge as possilbe when speaking/posting about such things; sorry if this has led to confusion.)
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catholictiger
Guest
I’m telling you no sin no excommunication will make a mass invalid, only a serious error in matter or form, or a priest actively setting his intent against the will of the church will a sacrament be invalid.
But lets say a priest drove a women to have an abortion than the next day heard someones confession who had some very serious mortal sins on his soul, that guy driving home from work gets in a serious car accident and dies, if excommunication made the sacrament invalid then that man would be going to hell even though he fully expected to go to heaven if he were to die.
Or lets say a bishop in the 300s got excommunicated from the Church, then next day he ordains 20 new priests, 10 of which one day become bishops, who in their life time ordain some 200 new priests, from that group 1000 new priests from that group 3000 new priests, and if that one bishop was excommunicated it is possible that half the priests and bishops today are not actually ordained, meaning you may not be going to a valid mass, you may not be going to a valid confession meaning you could go your entire life thinking you are forgiven when you are really not.
the simple fact is no matter what is on the priests soul as long as he is validly ordained (the amount of invalid ordinations are probably very small if any) he has the correct intent, which is as easy as hitting the side of a barn when you are standing 5 feet from it. The Form is correct, all he has to do is read the missal and even if he changes wording very little wording makes it invalid. Lastly the matter is correct, not difficult either I haven’t seen a church yet with invalid mater.
Ex opere operato “from the works done” meaning the effect of the sacraments happen not because of the holiness of the priest but from the work done by Jesus Christ. Christ is the true minister of the sacraments he works through the priest to give grace to his people. Christ is the carpenter of the sacraments the priest is just the hammer.
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catholictiger
Guest
again the only way that his intent can make the sacrament invalid is if he actively sets his will against it. So if he had the intent to do something later like I’m going to mix unconsecrated hosts with consecrated host to screw everything up, the hosts he was consecrating then would be valid. Or even more extreme, one day I’m not going to will for this to become the body and blood of Christ, he said this while lifting the host. This sacrament would be valid assuming he used correct form and matter. It is very difficult to invalidate the mass with ones intent, and personally I don’t want to know what you have to exactly do, just incase when I’m a priest and I have a bad 10 years I still want the sacraments to be valid, even if I may be doubting they are real.
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