Pro choice family member (GRRRRRRRR)

[Rivera]

My sister in law sent me a huge email encouraging me to vote for Kerry ‘for the children’s future’. I wrote her back that I couldn’t vote for someone who would do nothing to stop the brutal killing of 4000 American babies a day. She wrote back, I responded, etc. I don’t want to get embroiled in a huge argument with this woman. She is basically good hearted, but so completely fogged by the media and the progressive, enlightened, worldly stuff around her that she can’t think straight. It drives me nuts. If I make her mad though, I will probably never hear from my brother again, because he is a bit of a mouse. Anyway, where do you suggest drawing the line? I want to be a voice for the pre-born, but I don’t want to alienate my family. What would you do?
rivera
:banghead:

 

[SHEMP]

Rivera:

My sister in law sent me a huge email encouraging me to vote for Kerry ‘for the children’s future’. I wrote her back that I couldn’t vote for someone who would do nothing to stop the brutal killing of 4000 American babies a day. She wrote back, I responded, etc. I don’t want to get embroiled in a huge argument with this woman. She is basically good hearted, but so completely fogged by the media and the progressive, enlightened, worldly stuff around her that she can’t think straight. It drives me nuts. If I make her mad though, I will probably never hear from my brother again, because he is a bit of a mouse. Anyway, where do you suggest drawing the line? I want to be a voice for the pre-born, but I don’t want to alienate my family. What would you do?
rivera
:banghead:

Most of us who feel strongly about this issue have had similar experiences. I would recommend the following:

1. Pray for her that the Holy Spirit will guide her.
2. Pray for yourself that the Holy Spirit will guide you.
3. Don’t argue this issue via Email. One reply is reasonable but multiple replies are likely to deteriorate into emotional tension.
4. Live a life of example.
5. Live a life of prayer.

 

[La_Chiara]

I have very similar family disagreements. I usually respond calmly but firmly, if I strongly disagree with an opinion. I will continue up until the point where it is obvious that our positions are polarized. At that point, I will signal that we need to stop by saying that “we need to agree to disagree”. I recognize that at a certain point, I can not change the other person, and they will not change me. At that point, further discussion is futile. But it is important not to get dragged in again or allow the “discussion” to escalate–becoming angry and personal. It is a delicate balance. I think I am only able to really disengage once I got into my 40s!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Rivera:

Anyway, where do you suggest drawing the line? I want to be a voice for the pre-born, but I don’t want to alienate my family. What would you do?
rivera
:banghead:

For one thing, you have to decide whether you’re throwing pearls to swine or scattering seed on the path where they have no chance of taking root. If those are the cases, then you have to be a witness of love to her in ways she can understand. As others have said, pray for her and realize when you’ve hit a limit. Alienating her is obviously not going to win her over to your cause.

One way I think that pro-lifers often strike out on strategy is by insisting that discussion is clearly framed by what we think it should be. That is, human life begins at conception and it is intrinsically evil to destroy innocent human life. Pro-choice people either reject that or may have some inkling that it’s true but keep up a barrier to prevent them from admitting it.

If I want someone to come over to my side of a thought battlefield, it hardly ever works to yell across at them and either tell them they have to be crazy to be where they are, or convince them the view really is better from where I am. This is how most people with strong opinions argue; each yelling at the other to come over to their side. I say that if I want to save somebody from out of the muck, I have to be willing to step in it to go stand by them and lead them back to my side.

In this case, for example, drop the whole thing about “when does life begin” for the moment and start at a point where everybody agrees it already has begun. When a baby is five minutes old, can we agree that killing it would be murder? What about 30 seconds old? What about delivered but the cord isn’t cut yet? What about partially delivered, as in the case of “partial-birth” abortions?

If you get past that point, then move onto “what about five minutes before it is born?” What about an hour? Twelve hours? What if you wait until labor starts, then go in and kill the child?

At this point I’m not asking for reasons why anybody might want to do these horrendous things; after all, some people actually perform partial-birth abortions.

If you have trouble getting back before delivery, then ask whether it would be OK to induce labor a few days before the due date so that you have a few days to kill the child? If not, then why is it OK to kill the child first and then deliver it? Is it not just as viable?

Keep up this approach until you start asking about a week or month before the baby is due. Ask them exactly what specific time does it change from being murder to being moral.

With this approach you’re allowing them to explore the limits of their own beliefs, and you’re actually not asking them to believe anything you say. Once you reach an impasse where they can’t agree with you anymore, you drop the subject and let it sink in for some time before you bring it up again, if ever.

Even the most avid pro-choicer would think a child cannot be killed once it reaches its ten year birthday. What about its 10 day birthday? Ten minute? If you can get them thinking along these lines then you have planted seeds that may grow.

I know because I was pro-choice and this is the exact approach Rush Limbaugh used to change my mind when nobody else could – and the harder they tried the harder I dug in my heels. That is, until Rush showed me the power of incremental thought coaching.

Alan

 

[Xenon-135]

AlanFromWichita:

I know because I was pro-choice and this is the exact approach Rush Limbaugh used to change my mind when nobody else could – and the harder they tried the harder I dug in my heels. That is, until Rush showed me the power of incremental thought coaching.

Alan

I thought very highly of this post, until this excerpt. I wish i had been in Cape when “the mouth” was growing up and attending his classes at SEMO. Maybe I could have detoured him from his radio ranting.

I just can’t stand Limbaugh and his subtle anti-Catholicism. It really wears my patients thin. He is a champion for abortion because its one social issue that all he has to do is to profess his opposition, and thats it. All the rest can be sedintary and frivolous and he can still claim to have a positive impact on society without ever having to make a sincere contribution.

Unlike supporting programs for the poor, caring for the sick and elderly, or addressing the concerns of the disadvantages, all of which costs money that comes from that dirty word “taxes”. Its such a fake Christian that gives neither to Ceasar nor God, but only hoards all.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Xenon-135:

I just can’t stand Limbaugh and his subtle anti-Catholicism. It really wears my patients thin. He is a champion for abortion because its one social issue that all he has to do is to profess his opposition, and thats it. All the rest can be sedintary and frivolous and he can still claim to have a positive impact on society without ever having to make a sincere contribution.

I’m glad you liked the strategy for talking to a pro-choice person. I debated for a minute whether to disclose either fact – that I used to be fairly staunch pro-choice, or that I got this technique from Limbaugh whom I know to be a controversial figure. Then I figured, what the heck? I’m not getting paid to claim originality here.

Controversial or not, though, he has been extremely effective at persuading people and at changing the tone of news reporting and commentary. I listen to those I agree with and those I don’t; I often learn new things that way and pick up on good ideas and techniques for arguing.

Now I’m glad I did mention Limbaugh and my past position, because it gave me this chance to comment on listening to the enemy and adopting his techniques when they are effective. Even though I have been elected under a conservative platform, I find that conservatives may share many of the same political values as I do but that doesn’t mean they are always right. I’m somewhat of a “cafeteria conservative” in that try to listen and judge arguments by their merit and strategy by its effectiveness rather than by who promulgated it.

Unlike supporting programs for the poor, caring for the sick and elderly, or addressing the concerns of the disadvantages, all of which costs money that comes from that dirty word “taxes”. Its such a fake Christian that gives neither to Ceasar nor God, but only hoards all.

This I think is a oversimplified view of conservatism, and is certainly a common charactature thereof. Keep in mind that these programs for the poor are bureaucracies in and of themselves, and like any bureacracy they are funded by the number of people they serve, not by how well they actually address the problems of the poor. At the highest levels of politics, the worse thing that could happen to liberals is that the problems of the poor and of racism would actually get solved.

Alan

 

[Lance]

-------.

Unlike supporting programs for the poor, caring for the sick and elderly, or addressing the concerns of the disadvantages, all of which costs money that comes from that dirty word “taxes”. Its such a fake Christian that gives neither to Ceasar nor God, but only hoards all.

No they don’t have to come from taxes. IMO the private Christian charities do a much better job of helping the aged, the poor and the sick than the government does. I consider myself ultra-conservative and I spend over 150 hours a year volunteering to help mentally handicapped people and others less fortunate than myself. Tax dollars support a huge bureaucracy and the people who need the money are lucky to get 65 cents on the dollar. When I give to my parish, my diocese, The Salvation Army or The Knights of Columbus most of the money goes where you want it to go.

 

[Listener]

I am anti-abortion, and I would vote for any law that limits abortion in any way. I try not to donate to any charity that would use money to support abortion. However, I don’t get too upset if people say they are “pro-choice.” I believe that there is a big difference between being pro-abortion and pro-choice. People who are pro-abortion would probably believe that there is nothing at all wrong with having one. They would probably donate money to pro-abortion groups, and they would probably consider abortion as a nice form of birth control. If someone is pro-choice, however, they might just feel that they don’t want the government interfering if someone has an abortion. In other words, you and I might believe that adultery is a mortal sin, but we might not want the government to throw people who commit adultery in jail. You and I might believe that people who live together before marriage could be guilty of a mortal sin, but we might not want the government to throw these people in jail for committing fornication. I just believe that Catholics who are pro-choice would hopefully never have an abortion and would never participate in one. In other words, if someone said, “I am personally opposed to shoplifting, but I don’t believe that shoplifters should be arrested,” I would think they were a little nuts but not necessarily immoral. This really helps me to believe that “pro-choice” people have good hearts and may not be as sinful as I might be tempted to think that they are. I think that it is better to always think the best of people and to try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Remember, Jesus said something like, “Judge not so you won’t be judged.”

 

[Mamamull]

I have a sister-in-law who is one of the most misled women in this country. She is atheist – or wiccan maybe. She threw her husband of seven years out because she came to believe she was a lesbian. He was as left-wing as she was. He happily let her have their home be vegetarian. Seriously, I don’t know anyone who could be more in love with her – at least on this earth as only human.

She baits fights with me all the time. I am the one who married her closest sibling, but they are light years apart now in philosophy and I am sure I am blamed. Although, my husband really is the spiritual leader in this family.

Still, she has the nerve to send me pro-abortion emails. We are decidely prolife and she knows it. I keep sending her pro-Real Presence stuff in return.

I pray for her and try to not cause us to have any more trouble with me than she has already.

I do hate having her even touch my son. He was adopted – I can’t see why she should see any value in him if he is born. He was disposable before birth and somehow there is a difference in his value now?

She sent me an email on mother’s day supporting my abilities as a mother. I thanked her on behalf of my three dead children and one live child. I have gone to confession over my less than charitable comment to her, but still think it was accurate and I hope it made contact with her conscience.

Sigh!:banghead:

 

[legeorge]

Listener:

Remember, Jesus said something like, “Judge not so you won’t be judged.”

And who was it that said “Thou shall not kill”?

Do we put murderers in jail? Do you think that is wrong? Abortion is murder. Plain and simple. And pro-choice is just a pc term for “pro-right to choose whether or not to murder your own baby.”

That said, and getting back on topic, Rivera, is your sister in law Catholic? If so, ask her casually sometime if she thinks that John Kerry is faithful to his professed religion (Catholic). If he isn’t, how can she be sure that he will be faithful to his campaign promises? You just have to state the facts plainly, and not be pulled into an ongoing battle that could harm your family relationship. As long as she knows where you stand and you firmly but humbly let her know that you will by no means ever change your mind, leave it at that. Pray for the softening of her heart on this issue. Love her anyway.

 

[Listener]

legeorge:

And who was it that said “Thou shall not kill”?

Do we put murderers in jail? Do you think that is wrong? Abortion is murder. Plain and simple. And pro-choice is just a pc term for “pro-right to choose whether or not to murder your own baby.”

Of course, I agree with you. I am not arguing my own viewpoint. I am just trying to understand why otherwise good people would call themselves “pro-choice.” I think we need to keep in mind that God gave each woman free will. She has the power to decide for abortion even if the government outlaws it.

 

[legeorge]

Listener:

Of course, I agree with you. I am not arguing my own viewpoint. I am just trying to understand why otherwise good people would call themselves “pro-choice.” I think we need to keep in mind that God gave each woman free will. She has the power to decide for abortion even if the government outlaws it.

Well, I guess I see what you mean, however this is a very serious issue. Sometimes our silence in the face of such things as misguided “Catholic pro-choicers” is more of a disservice than seeming to be “non-understanding” of others’ positions. We all have free will to do good or evil. We also have an obligation to help others on their journey. People need to know that they can participate in the sin of another by many means. Silence is among them. Peace.

 

[Rivera]

Thanks for your replies so far. I work days and my kids just went down for bed so now I can take a moment to read what you said. My SIL is not Catholic. She is a nominal Lutheran, but I don’t know how deep it runs. I think she is at least open to hearing why I think the way I do (because to her it is complete nonsense). I have to choose my next message to her pretty wisely.

thanks again for your thoughtful responses,
rivera

 

[2heartsaz1]

I strongly recommend learning a direct line of argument/reasoning on abortion: Stand to Reason’s program entitled “Making Abortion Unthinkable.”

Pass out little conscience awakening cards from Life Dynamics.

Basically, though evangelical, Stand to Reason teaches that we are Christ’s ambassadors and lists the virtues these ambassadors should have.

1. REstore meaning to the word ‘abortion’ with graphic visuals.
   Graphics are used as evidence for the truth, not to muddy the truth or hide the truth or sidetrack the argument. Warn your audience and make sure it’s known that you are not there to condemn anyone, that it’s ok not to look, or turn your head away or even leave the room. Mention that God’s forgiveness is just a confessional away and readily available if appropriate to the setting.

2.Simplify the issue- the moral jest of it is that this is human persons we’re speaking about, and the question: What is it? must be addressed. “it” is a human being, not a frog embryo. It is 100% human from the get go and that’s biologcial science: human beings beget human persons. Answer the question: is it moral to kill human beings? Are human beings less human when they are dependent on mom’s womb, dependent on mom’s milk, dependent on parental guidance and support, dependent on insulin at age 50, dependent on their spouse for assistance, etc.etc.? No, they are no less human as we are all dependent on something/someone at all times or interdependent, if you may. The situational variables ARE complex, but they (rape,incest,poverty,maternal emotional health,etc.) are not the main moral issue so don’t get sidetracked, separate the moral from the situational effects and stick to the moral issue with compassion.

1. Offer sound reasoning for above moral argument. Trot out a 2 year old like this " If a mother of an older, living child suddenly loses her job, is it morally justifiable for her to kill the 3year old because it’s a hardship on her now?" Well, the child is a human no matter what age or level of dependency. Chromosomes and genes are entirely human. A human is valuable at every age and stage.
2. Anticipate the rhetoric of the pro-death stance and be prepared to answer with honesty and compassion: “Let’s just assume, as you asked, that I have not adopted any unwanted children…whether abortion, the killing of 4,000 unborn human beings each day is moral or not is what we’re discussing. What I do or do not do is not related to physicians in abortion clinics killing innocent human life…”

Keep preparing for the potential windows of opportunity to discuss life. I heartily recommend checking out www.str.org

Priests for life also recommends the above. Peace.

 

[FairyMagdelaine]

No one in my secular circle questions me when they find out that I’m a) vegetarian, b) against capital punishment, c) against war…sometimes I get some resistance when they find out I’m anti-euthanasia, but when they find out I’m pro-life, you would think that I grew 2 new heads. When dealing with these people I try not to bring religion into it. Once in a great while someone will understand where I’m coming from…from the groundpoint where ALL breathing, thinking, growing, cerebral, living life is not ours to dicker around with. Some people are just misguided, and the insinuation that a fetus is not a life is either sick, or a way to console the choice without guilt. What people will do for a little bit of sex…

 

[Mamamull]

FairyMagdelaine:

No one in my secular circle questions me when they find out that I’m a) vegetarian, b) against capital punishment, c) against war…sometimes I get some resistance when they find out I’m anti-euthanasia, but when they find out I’m pro-life, you would think that I grew 2 new heads. When dealing with these people I try not to bring religion into it. Once in a great while someone will understand where I’m coming from…from the groundpoint where ALL breathing, thinking, growing, cerebral, living life is not ours to dicker around with. Some people are just misguided, and the insinuation that a fetus is not a life is either sick, or a way to console the choice without guilt. What people will do for a little bit of sex…

Well, you said a lot there. Yep, you can be counter-cultural in many ways, but pro-life and Christian are not allowed.

How we can have sex and punish the innocent life that is started just because it was inconvenient…Sigh!

How can I ever get past looking at my kids – who were adopted — and wonder why they have worth now but didn’t before birth? I get stuck there and I can’t be useful in evangelizing anyone.