Pro-Life and Free Will

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Martin_Davis

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I realize I may be stepping into a very “live” minefield, but please accept this as a well-intended comment on the subject of Pro-Life and Pro-Choice.

The heart of the issue, as I see it, is that currently the law supports legal abortions. In the majority of Christian eyes this is seen as legally supporting an immoral act. Abortion, in my opinion, is a symptom of a much bigger issue that, like slavery, requires a change in society’s values and not just a change in the law.

Research has shown that the majority of requested pregnancy terminations come from women who live below the poverty line. Women who feel helpless to support a child in their poverty.

So, my thinking is that if we were able to truly stand for Pro-Life in its fullest expression we would urge the reduction of government spending on weapons of war and funnel that reduction into an increase in social programs that help the poor out of poverty.

The early Christians were viewed as social outcasts because they would oppose the law by rescuing babies from being drowned or abandoned. Through their example over time the minds of the majority were changed and the laws changed as a result.

Also, on the subject of slavery, if you read the letters of Paul and Peter you find that they taught that Slave owners to change their attitude toward their slaves, and likewise for slaves to honor and obey their masters. This change of heart led to a change in how slaves were treated. The Apostles did not protest the law - they encouraged a change of behavior.

One last thought - God gives us Free Will and does not force us to be moral - he reveals through his word the potential penalty for disobedience - but he still allows us to choose whether we obey or not. Isn’t this the way, unfortunately, that we have to view the Pro-Choice approach? We need to be persuasive in our arguments for life - but we need to allow the choice. I realize this is a tough approach, but it has been a matter of history to see that imposing morality by legal means is not as effective as changing hearts that support that morality and then having legislation that supports that view.

Rather than trying to change the law which currently meets considerable resistance - can we focus on removing the causes of poverty and its resulting hopelessness? We could support legislation that makes it easier and cheaper to adopt children - and support tax relief on low income families rather than legislation that supports tax relief for billionaires?

Just some honest thoughts - please accept them in the spirit they’re given.
 
Correlation isn’t causation. Even if every abortion was done by the poor, which I don’t think is the case, that would not show poverty is the cause of abortion.

I’m all about eliminating poverty. But I think even if no one was poor there would still be pro choicers who view abortion as a form of birth control. Besides, we can look at the rich and famous and see that money doesn’t seem to make people happy…let alone incline anyone to a greater morality.
 
Martin_Davis said:
We need to be persuasive in our arguments for life - but we need to allow the choice.
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I think this is the right approach. If everyone could see the value of human life, and love the unborn, that would solve the problem. No one would choose abortion.
Martin_Davis said:
can we focus on removing the causes of poverty and its resulting hopelessness?
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I see your point, but I don’t think poverty is key. I think poor people have more babies. Wealthy people choose abortion for other reasons.
 
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Martin_Davis said:
We need to be persuasive in our arguments for life - but we need to allow the choice.
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Please clarify. Are you saying that a woman should decide whether or not to have an abortion, which is the murder of her preborn baby? If that’s the case then positively NO.
 
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Margaret_Ann said:
Please clarify. Are you saying that a woman should decide whether or not to have an abortion, which is the murder of her preborn baby? If that’s the case then positively NO.
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Exactly. We don’t “allow the choice” of the parent to kill their two year old child either because that would also be murder.
 
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Both can be done; a carrot and stick approach. Your question actually relates directly to our Christian faith. The New Testament teaches that the law, any moral law, cannot make us just; mere external obedience does not make a person inwardly righteous. But it also teaches that the law, itself, is just; it’s right and good and we’ll still be judged on it. The New Covenant is all about God working an inward change in us, by our willingly entering and remaining in communion with Him.

But either way a question must be asked in response to the position you advocate: should we abolish laws against murder just because, perhaps, murderers may have backgrounds that beget murderers and in any case aren’t yet so convinced that murder is wrong so that they might refrain from it?
 
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I agree that abortion is a symptom of a much bigger issue. But it’s not poverty. It’s the godless perversion of our society by the sexual revolution. When we as a society practice sexual license to the degree it is practiced today, of course we’re going to get more abortions. And also I disagree about changing the values before the laws. Abortion was legalized from the bench in 1973 at a time when most Americans didn’t want it. However, the pro-abortion elites soon forced their values upon the American people, and today most Americans support abortion. Make the law first, the change in values will follow.
 
Martin_Davis said:
We need to be persuasive in our arguments for life - but we need to allow the choice.
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Since what you’re really saying is we need to LEGALLY allow the choice, because God Himself gave us free will–why wouldn’t this logic apply to every other human action?

By this logic, we need to get rid of all laws and simply make persuasive arguments for people to not murder, rape, steal, beat their children, kill their children (in or out of the womb)–but allow them the choice.

I’m in full agreement that many other things also need to change–change in behavior, change in hearts, etc.
 
Martin_Davis said:
One last thought - God gives us Free Will and does not force us to be moral - he reveals through his word the potential penalty for disobedience - but he still allows us to choose whether we obey or not. Isn’t this the way, unfortunately, that we have to view the Pro-Choice approach? We need to be persuasive in our arguments for life - but we need to allow the choice. I realize this is a tough approach, but it has been a matter of history to see that imposing morality by legal means is not as effective as changing hearts that support that morality and then having legislation that supports that view.
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Hi Martin, welcome.

Because an unborn person is a human being, deliberately killing the unborn is murder. Murder is against the law because it is a grave violation of that person’s dignity and it also harms the common good. Other things that are against the law for the same reason include violations such as assault, robbery, sexual assault, or destruction of property.

Not everything that is sinful necessarily needs to be illegal, and the traditional argument by St Aquinas (that the Church generally agrees with) is that making some things illegal can end up causing even more harm, such as if the authorities tried to chase down everybody that uses inflammatory language. This would severely disrupt society and create even more evil than it stops.

In the case of abortion, since killing an unborn child is analogous to killing any other person, it absolutely needs to be illegal in order to protect the dignity and well-being of the human person.

Lastly, you are of course absolutely correct that in addition to making abortion illegal, we can work to create a better and more just society that provides for the needs of mothers and families and to help them. There is a principle in Catholic social justice: “To create a society where it is easier to do good”.

Peace.
 
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Martin_Davis said:
Research has shown that the majority of requested pregnancy terminations come from women who live below the poverty line. Women who feel helpless to support a child in their poverty.

So, my thinking is that if we were able to truly stand for Pro-Life in its fullest expression we would urge the reduction of government spending on weapons of war and funnel that reduction into an increase in social programs that help the poor out of poverty.
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Research has shown that the majority of Rapes come from men who live below the poverty line. Men who feel helpless to attract a woman in their poverty.

So, my thinking is that if we were able to truly stand against Rape in its fullest expression we would urge the reduction of government spending on weapons of war and funnel that reduction into an increase in social programs that help the Poor Rapists out of poverty.
 
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