Problems with Genesis, Concupiscence, Free Will, and Regenerative Baptism

[JackVk]

I’ve had a nagging problem with the ideas of free will, concupiscence, and regenerative baptism lately. They intertwine:

1. Original sin is an unjust inheritance. It is a design flaw to plague all humanity when only two people were directly responsible for it. For example, you and I, personally, did not take the apple. So why are we still cursed for something we had nothing to do with?
2. The story of Genesis seems to imply that God wanted to keep us in ignorance. Why else would it have been called the “tree of knowledge”?
3. Concupiscence is the idea that we are more inclined toward sin instead of virtue. If that’s the case, then we are not truly free; we are playing with loaded dice (there was once an apologist in the Quick Questions section who used this exact line of reasoning when arguing for Mary’s Immaculate Conception. Because she was free from concupiscence, she was more free to choose what was good).
4. Baptism is supposed to take away original sin, but concupiscence remains. Why? Doesn’t concupiscence’s continued presence make the baptism meaningless? What’s the difference between original sin and the “stain” of original sin? To me, it seems like splitting hairs. Baptism should make good and evil as obvious as day and night, should it not?
5. Why would God allow us free will if He knows that there is a possibility of us being eternally separated from Him, the Ultimate Good? It seems like God giving us free will is like a parent who lets a toddler play with matches.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

 

[on_the_hill]

I don’t have answers to any of your points, but they do look pretty reasonable, rational, and otherwise agreeable to me.

 

[Trident_H]

I’ve had a nagging problem with the ideas of free will, concupiscence, and regenerative baptism lately. They intertwine:

1. Original sin is an unjust inheritance. It is a design flaw to plague all humanity when only two people were directly responsible for it. For example, you and I, personally, did not take the apple. So why are we still cursed for something we had nothing to do with?
2. The story of Genesis seems to imply that God wanted to keep us in ignorance. Why else would it have been called the “tree of knowledge”?

See. Points 1 & 2 are related. I mean you can’t have 1 without the other in this. Because.

Listen. The Garden of Eden? It wasn’t just a place. It was a way of life. It was a way of being. Think about it. Here you’ve got a way where everything you need is just within reach. It’s an easy and carefree way. No real work involved. Remind you of something? Remind you of a way of life that might once have been like that?

So then you’ve got the tree of knowledge. It has fruit on it. That fruit is knowledge. The whole tree is a new way of doing things. The fruit is the realization of that new way.

Look. Let me bend your ear a bit in this. The story of leaving Eden? That’s a story of loss of innocence. It’s a permanent loss. A loss we all share in.

Why? Because so long as we were in Eden we were little better than animals. We were a bit special sure. But we didn’t do anything to earn our keep. We didn’t create even so much as clothes for ourselves. We were just animals living in our natural habitat.

But the tree? It was a choice. And it was mostly probably blamed on women at the time. But the choice was that we needed to start settling down. It meant we needed to learn to farm. We learned to be more than just animals. We were thinking on our own for once. We were growing. And learning. And doing.

So the Garden of Eden? From our hazy memory of our past. Before we stood more upright in things. Before childbirth was as painful as it became. The tree of knowledge was the first inkling that we were more than animals. It was the first realization of science. Of farming. Of keeping flocks. Mostly brought about out of a need to better take care of our young. And stop the hand to mouth existence of previous times.

So I’d see the whole set up as less of a test. And more of a coming of age story. I mean it’s sort of like the kid who gets to 18 and wants to leave the house. God’s warning was simple: “Once you go that route there’s no coming back. There’s no unlearning that stuff. You’re on a new path. You an all your descendants.”

So we’ve left home. And now have to deal with the consequences.

1. Concupiscence is the idea that we are more inclined toward sin instead of virtue. If that’s the case, then we are not truly free; we are playing with loaded dice (there was once an apologist in the Quick Questions section who used this exact line of reasoning when arguing for Mary’s Immaculate Conception. Because she was free from concupiscence, she was more free to choose what was good).

And this too is linked to the first 2 options. Because when we were more like animals we couldn’t really “choose” wrong. We couldn’t really rationalize it that way. But once we put distance between these 2 states? Well then every time we act like animals we sin. And every time we rise up out of that we get back onto the right footing. So since acting like an animal is still part of our nature. And acting in a human way is the built-up learned better way. We obviously have a bigger chance of getting pulled down easy paths.

1. Baptism is supposed to take away original sin, but concupiscence remains. Why? Doesn’t concupiscence’s continued presence make the baptism meaningless? What’s the difference between original sin and the “stain” of original sin? To me, it seems like splitting hairs. Baptism should make good and evil as obvious as day and night, should it not?

Baptism’s just a physical sign that we’re facing God in this. It’s a way in that direction. But it’s not a cure. It’s not some magical way to solve all our natural leanings. It’s just meant to be a sign for everyone around to see. A sign that we’re all facing in the same way.

 

[Trident_H]

1. Why would God allow us free will if He knows that there is a possibility of us being eternally separated from Him, the Ultimate Good? It seems like God giving us free will is like a parent who lets a toddler play with matches.

In some cultures the kids actually are allowed to play with knives. I mean they’re left out for anyone to reach. The thinking’s that the sooner the kid figures out the mystery of that thing, and figures out it can hurt, well the sooner he’ll learn to be safer with it. But with God the choice really was important. It was so really straight forward too.

Because in keeping us all at home and safe, God knew we couldn’t develop. We didn’t get particularly good. And we really didn’t get deeply evil either. But as soon as we grew up and were ready to leave that type of safety well we now had to make and live by our choices.

I mean take a guy like me. Now if I could go ahead and do all the things I’ve done and get away with them. Well what’s pushing me to change? What’s steering me into a better way?

If there are no consequences then nothing in this life has meaning. We can do what we want. And just get a pat on the head.

Sort of like going to the amusement park to ride a scary ride. But then coming home afterwards and sleeping in our nice soft bed.

So if life’s supposed to have a deep meaning. And not just a fake one. It has to have a real consequence. It has to have the ability to bite. Otherwise we might as well just stop trying. Otherwise the greatest thing we ever do is no better than the greatest act of bravery in a dream.

And every sin we overcome is just the same as every one we give in to.

I think we’re here because it’s a risk. And that’s the only way to get God’s respect in this. We’ve put our money on the table. We’re in this for keeps. We’re not just reading a book that we mean to put down later. We’re committed. For good or bad.

Peace Jack.

-Trident

 

[ahs]

I’ve had a nagging problem with the ideas of free will, concupiscence, and regenerative baptism lately. They intertwine:

1. Original sin is an unjust inheritance. It is a design flaw to plague all humanity when only two people were directly responsible for it. For example, you and I, personally, did not take the apple. So why are we still cursed for something we had nothing to do with?

If original sin is unjust, how exactly is the application of Christ’s salvific act to ALL humanity just? Adam and Eve sinned and lost supernatural grace. All humans born thereafter lack supernatural grace because of our ancestors. That’s not unjust, it’s a consequence that our ancestors were warned about. But, what is truly amazing is that God decided to save us all anyway…to offer us supernatural grace again. All we have to do is accept it and hold onto it like a treasure.

1. The story of Genesis seems to imply that God wanted to keep us in ignorance. Why else would it have been called the “tree of knowledge”?

Keep us in ignorance? Or keep us from experiencing the real consequence of an action. Did my dad want to keep me in ignorance when he said “don’t stick that paper clip in a light socket”? Was he preventing me from the wondrous knowledge I would gain about good/evil by doing that? No, he was warning me for my own benefit. Too bad for me, I had to learn the hard way. I got the “knowledge” I was seeking, no doubt. And I wish I had not.

1. Concupiscence is the idea that we are more inclined toward sin instead of virtue. If that’s the case, then we are not truly free; we are playing with loaded dice (there was once an apologist in the Quick Questions section who used this exact line of reasoning when arguing for Mary’s Immaculate Conception. Because she was free from concupiscence, she was more free to choose what was good).

I disagree. But if concupiscence loads the dice out of our favor, what does supernatural grace (at Baptism) do? What about the Eucharist? What about confession?

1. Baptism is supposed to take away original sin, but concupiscence remains. Why?

Because we haven’t died yet and are still in our corporeal bodies. Spirit + Body.

Doesn’t concupiscence’s continued presence make the baptism meaningless?

No. It gives us supernatural grace…the life of Christ within us, and helps us along our journey through this life as we learn to live the life He calls us to live.

What’s the difference between original sin and the “stain” of original sin? To me, it seems like splitting hairs. Baptism should make good and evil as obvious as day and night, should it not?

Original sin the original sin committed by our ancestors, Adam and Eve…the rejection of God and the placement of the self above the Creator. The “stain” is the lack of supernatural grace that resulted, that we all inherit.
Those aren’t formal definitions, of course. For that, I refer you to your word-searchable Catechism (please go there for a more accurate understanding):
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

1. Why would God allow us free will if He knows that there is a possibility of us being eternally separated from Him, the Ultimate Good? It seems like God giving us free will is like a parent who lets a toddler play with matches.

Would you prefer that He NOT, and then we are all just a bunch of automatons? Without free will, would anyone choose to save someone else’s life, or do any heroic act of virtue? Free will doesn’t just apply to our wrong choices. It applies to our right choices as well.

 

[Eternity_Next]

The Devil knows we are limited in many ways.** Two of the ways we are limited: 1. what has been revealed to us and 2. our ability to understand what has been revealed to us**. The Devil knows these things all too well. He wants us in Hell forever and ever. He is smarter than us.

You need the Sword of the Spirit to overcome these tactics of Satan and his angels.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.…

1. We don’t know all of why. You would do well to believe that at Judgment you will not see that it was unjust, and that all of the righteous will rejoice at the justice AND the mercy of the infinite, eternal God - the Holy Trinity. He is infinite in Love, Mercy, Wisdom, and Knowledge, as well as Justice. You do not know better than Him. He hasn’t revealed everything yet. Just know that He loves us and wants us to live forever, free from sin and all that is bad, with Him - the Infinite and Eternal Good. His desire for this was such that He sent His only Begotten Son to die, literally be tortured to death, for OUR sins.

I will also say this: this is one of the most wickedly deceptive attacks that the Devil uses. It is hard to counter because it cannot be directly countered with an explanation from Public Revelation. God didn’t fully explain it yet. That said, it can still be countered with the Sword of the Spirit.

1. Tree of knowledge of good and evil. Not the tree of knowledge. I could be wrong, but it seems that without knowledge of good and evil, we could not choose evil. That might be part of why. Why did you leave out the part about “good and evil?”
2. That’s right, we are not truly free without the freedom we receive in Christ. Even then, we fight to be free from sin. Whoever sins once is a slave to sin. But we do have free will, and God said that with every temptation - He gives us an escape. We have both free will and concupiscence.

1 Corinthians 10:13
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

1. We receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism. The Spirit of Christ.
2. Our finite minds should not dare to make blasphemous comparisons like that when speaking of Almighty God, the one whose mind is literally infinite, the One who is the source of ALL life that ever was or will be. This logic is against the decisions of THE infinite, eternal, Source of ALL life that ever was or will be, the one who IS infinite Love, who HAS infinite Wisdom, and desires the best for every one of His Creations. He wills that we be in Heaven and pours out an ocean of graces to get us there, many of which we do not cooperate with and instead choose of our own free will to sin. He forgives us over and over, for any number of sins that would otherwise lead to our eternal damnation. He gave us free will because He saw fit to. He is infinite, He is Love, and He desires mercy on all of His creatures.

I want to remind you and anyone else reading that God is the one who gave us Life and Love. He is literally the only reason Life and Love CAN exist, and He is THE reason Life and Love DO exist.

Of all of the tactics of Satan, these specific tactics are, in my opinion, some of the most vicious ones out there. These specific deceptions in this thread. They are so vicious because the Devil knows that we have finite minds and limited information and limited ability to comprehend information. You better believe that Satan and his angels know just how deceptive this logic really is, and how sinful it is to cultivate thoughts like this. And he knows that we can’t fully see it yet. Satan has eternity in mind. ***We also should understand the stakes and understand that we are literally at war, and put all of our faith in the Lord our God. We must put on the full armor of God and take up the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. ***

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph
Please help

 

[JackVk]

Thank you all for the replies. It has been bothering me, and though none of these are 100% satisfactory, I think they at least show me what I have known all along: that God isn’t playing games with us and being unfair for its own sake. It seems like spiritual attacks become more annoying and grueling.

 

[Eternity_Next]

Thank you all for the replies. It has been bothering me, and though none of these are 100% satisfactory, I think they at least show me what I have known all along: that God isn’t playing games with us and being unfair for its own sake. It seems like spiritual attacks become more annoying and grueling.

If you are human, and I do think you are, you are being attacked by fallen angels. I hate these specific deceptions. They are what Satan’s angels start using when someone believes the Truth and tries to be faithful to God and is resistant to compromise.

The fact that Satan is starting to attack you with these specific attacks is telling.

Remember - they can do more than lie. They can also manipulate your feelings and your imagination.

The part about manipulating our feelings is difficult to fight against. We have to deny ourselves. They will try to attack your flesh (manipulate your feelings) and hit you with these lies at the same time, if they can, and it is going to hurt if they do. Persevere in prayer.

The Whole Armor of God

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.

When these kinds of attacks begin, it is not just one soul at stake. If you win, and God will give you sufficient grace to win, others will be saved from the eternal fire who would have otherwise been damned by their own malice. You are fighting in the war between God’s Saints and the Devil’s angels. God will not abandon you. Eternity is what is at stake.

Talk to your Guardian Angel regularly. And always ask our Mother to help you when these attacks are going on.

 

[ahs]

Thank you all for the replies. It has been bothering me, and though none of these are 100% satisfactory, I think they at least show me what I have known all along: that God isn’t playing games with us and being unfair for its own sake. It seems like spiritual attacks become more annoying and grueling.

If you have a Catechism, begin at paragraphs 1730-1748. Then just use the index to follow your next concern, by topic. If you don’t, then use that word-searchable like I provided. It is awesome for searching by topic/keyword. That will give you a better understanding of what the Church teaches and what it means/understands by/about your various concerns.

You can also go to the Catholic Answers Homepage and do a keyword search for the various blogs, tracts, videos, radio show clips, etc…that cover just about everything you have mentioned.