Problems with Modern Christian Music

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Young_Christian

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Though I respect modern Christian music for its intent of promoting Christian values, in some ways, I find it quite controversial. I personally feel that, by choosing to write and perform modern, very secular styles of music with Christian lyrics, modern Christian artists and song writers are going against the Bible’s teaching about being in the world, but not of the world. I can think of no reason, other than the fear of being “too different” from the secular world, to play music in styles which are secular through and though. Another thing which bothers me about the music, (which is somewhat tied into the above issue) is its general lack of formality and reverence. I believe that God should always be treated with the greatest of respect, and, while the messages of the songs themselves may glorify God, the lazy, informal ways in which they are delivered do not. What do you think about this issue?
 
I totally agree. Some of the music we have today is so banal. If you can get hold of a book called The Snakebite Letters by Peter J. Kreeft I thoroughly recommend it. It is an updated Catholic version of C S Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters.

Basically, Satan would like to remove the sacred (and the reverent) from the liturgy and the music. When it is all boring and unremarkable, people lose their awe of God. Kreeft says:

“They’ve gotten the most powerful and dramatic thing in the world -the ritual murder of the Son of God to save souls from Hell - to sound like a Barry Manilow song or a Rod McKuen poem. ‘There’s Power in the Blood’ has become ‘Listen to the Warm.’”(p 54).
 
Sorry, but I don’t get how a ‘style’ of music can be secular (or religious for that matter). The only thing that I ever thought made a song secular or religious was the lyrics. How can you play a guitar in a way that is distinctly secular? Or play it in a way that is religious? There are secular artists who use things like church organs and choirs (common to a lot of religious music), does that mean they are writing secular songs in a religious style?

Do you call a style of music ‘secular’ just because in the past it has been used by secular artists with secular lyrics? Wouldn’t that be like saying that building things with bricks and mortar is a secular style, because before churches, people used to use bricks and mortar to build secular buildings? Hence we shouln’t build churches out of them, we should make our own, religious style of making buildings?

I can understand people saying not to use some modern Christian music in the liturgy. But that is mostly because of the lyrics rather than the style of music I think - the words in our liturgical music are often from the bible, or else could be used as words of the liturgy even if they weren’t in musical form. The lyrics of a lot of Christian artists today, although they are in praise God, are not always appropriate for the liturgy - they really should be checked out by the priest before being used.
However, even if music is not appropriate for the liturgy, as that is very sacred, it doesn’t mean that that music is not good for general listening by Christians. Same as how we don’t have readings at mass from modern books written by Christians, we only have readings from scripture, but that doesn’t mean those books aren’t good for reading.

I could also understand if you were complaining about Christian artists living the life style of secular rock artists (drugs and groupies) because thats obviously secular and a bad example to young people. But just playing music in a certain style? I don’t think so.
 
I would suspect that if one were to go back in history to the various times in which there were significant chages in music, one would find the same complaint made about those at the time writing sacred music; I have heard the complaint was made, for example, of Palistrina, one who now, at least in some circles, is reputed to have written some of the finest sacred music ever.

There will always be some music that just doesn’t amount to much, if for no other reason than that genius or talent tends to be at its greatest is the fewest. having siad that, too often the issue really gets down to one or two issues: how does one define “sacred”, and the issue of personal taste.
 
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Flopfoot:
Sorry, but I don’t get how a ‘style’ of music can be secular (or religious for that matter).
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I agree - the exception perhaps being some style of music that is actively another religion - for instance - if ONLY a certain non-Christian religious group were the ONLY ones performing a certain style - and there was some religious ceremony to it or something - then of course you could claim the music itself is that

But for everything else… I just get aggrivated at the idea that a certain STYLE is wrong regardless of the lyrics - I used to work in a Protestant Christian bookstore for a while, and the number of people I heard telling their kids that “CCM is of the devil” and that only Southern Gospel was acceptable would blow your mind… Excuse me - but if the lyrics are the same (after all one of the Southern Gospel groups has done Nichole C. Mullin’s song Redeemer) would they pick the Southern Gospel over CCM - sadly I think so! (of course I might feel too strongly against this because most Southern Gospel grates on my nerves, lol)

I do agree that much CCM does get lazy with its lyrics and its message - especially the trend towards “Praise and Worship” music - but thats another topic entirely…
 
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Flopfoot:
Sorry, but I don’t get how a ‘style’ of music can be secular (or religious for that matter). The only thing that I ever thought made a song secular or religious was the lyrics. How can you play a guitar in a way that is distinctly secular? Or play it in a way that is religious? There are secular artists who use things like church organs and choirs (common to a lot of religious music), does that mean they are writing secular songs in a religious style?

Do you call a style of music ‘secular’ just because in the past it has been used by secular artists with secular lyrics? Wouldn’t that be like saying that building things with bricks and mortar is a secular style, because before churches, people used to use bricks and mortar to build secular buildings? Hence we shouln’t build churches out of them, we should make our own, religious style of making buildings?

I can understand people saying not to use some modern Christian music in the liturgy. But that is mostly because of the lyrics rather than the style of music I think - the words in our liturgical music are often from the bible, or else could be used as words of the liturgy even if they weren’t in musical form. The lyrics of a lot of Christian artists today, although they are in praise God, are not always appropriate for the liturgy - they really should be checked out by the priest before being used.
However, even if music is not appropriate for the liturgy, as that is very sacred, it doesn’t mean that that music is not good for general listening by Christians. Same as how we don’t have readings at mass from modern books written by Christians, we only have readings from scripture, but that doesn’t mean those books aren’t good for reading.

I could also understand if you were complaining about Christian artists living the life style of secular rock artists (drugs and groupies) because thats obviously secular and a bad example to young people. But just playing music in a certain style? I don’t think so.
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The way I see it, the only reasons a Christian artist could have for choosing to play music of very secular styles, neither of which are good, are as follows:
  1. Though the artist obviously wants be different from the world to some extent by performing Christian music, he is afraid that if he does not perform music of a very secular style, he will seem “too different” from the secular world for his taste.
  2. The artist wants Christianity to appeal to seculars, and, therefore, performs music which will make Christianity seem in harmony with the world.
I admit though that this is a controversial issue and we may just have to agree to disagree on it.
 
The musical director and choir folks are well paid, but they choose music that is amazingly boring and unremarkable at my church. I pray they would let us sing the traditional great church music - like we used to not so long ago.

I guess that’s why I watch EWTN Mass so much. Their music is amazingly wonderful.
 
Young Christian:
The way I see it, the only reasons a Christian artist could have for choosing to play music of very secular styles, neither of which are good, are as follows:
  1. Though the artist obviously wants be different from the world to some extent by performing Christian music, he is afraid that if he does not perform music of a very secular style, he will seem “too different” from the secular world for his taste.
  2. The artist wants Christianity to appeal to seculars, and, therefore, performs music which will make Christianity seem in harmony with the world.
I admit though that this is a controversial issue and we may just have to agree to disagree on it.
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My question would be, then what style of music do you want Christians to play in so that it isn’t secular? Are you a musician, have you tried writing music before? There’s not that many different chord progressions which sound pleasing to the ear, not that many different kinds of scales that can be used, and not that many different sounds that it’s possible to make on a limited budget. I reckon that there is a third possible reason why Christians play in secular styles: Because its a hell of a lot easier to play a stlye that’s tested and true and all the instruments naturally work well in, than to invent a whole new style of playing music just to be different. And it’s also a lot cheaper.
 
There seems to be a lot of talking past one another going one here. Just what IS the topic anyways? Are we talking about liturgical music or drive to work music?

If the former, then I would agree that there are musical styles which are not conducive to reverence.

If the latter, then I couldn’t disagree more. Styles of private listening music have no inherent spiritual orientation! This smacks of Saturday Night Live ‘church lady’ comedy! I tend to agree that the commercial CCM market seems to have relatively low standards for overall musical excellence and sometimes fairly poor production quality. But I think an attitude that perceives ‘secular’ music styles as inherently evil somehow MIGHT betray an inappropriate attitude towards creation itself. Remember folks, God created the world and it is GOOD. He created all humanity and it is GOOD, though fallen. The creativity and artfulness of good musicians implicitly glorifies God whether the artist intends it or not. I can’t see how taking such styles and artfully adding explicitly christian themes and lyrics would trouble anyone who sees the world this way.
 
You know, I have found that a lot of the disagreement regarding contemporary christian music (CCM) revolves around musical taste. If certain contemporary music lifts your mind and heart to God, then it is good. If certain music distracts you from God, regardless of the style or lyrics, it probably isn’t something you should listen to. Then you have to look at the context. I certainly wouldn’t advocate most CCM for Mass or any other type of worship, but I also wouldn’t recommend playing Vivaldi, Bach or Mozart during Mass either (unless they are pieces composed for the Mass).

When I play music around the house, I’d rather it be CCM music than secular music. Traditional Southern Gospel just doesn’t appeal to me and although I love many of the traditional hymns, that’s not what I prefer to listen to when painting the house. So I get back to my original point. Much of this is closely related to individual taste.
 
Young Christian:
The way I see it, the only reasons a Christian artist could have for choosing to play music of very secular styles, neither of which are good, are as follows:
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Then what is the difference between styles? What style is strictly Christian? I still argue that the style is not secular or religious that its neutral.

of course for that matter I have trouble distiguishing genres unless its obvious - and at the same time I have trouble grouping people into genres because I think MOST musicians (at least the good ones) sound completely different than any other musician (find me ANYONE who sounds like Michael W. Smith or Steven Curtis Chapman in secular music? There may be similarities, but to me, they’re still so unique that it is hard to group them into anything

I really think that MOST CCM artists are not actively thinking that they are imitating secular styles - rather they are just writing and performing the style of music that appeals to them MUSICALLY. If they were trying to imitate secular styles then they might be a lot more successful at getting some Christians who listen to secular music because “CCM is no good” to start listening to CCM…

but yes - its probably a agree to disagree situation - though I really would like to try and understand your definition of styles and what style is Christian so I can understand where you are coming from here… I’m just a musician that looks at the musical notes as being somewhat separate from the message - yes the music can invoke emotions, but besides that the message comes from the lyrics or the intent of the music… To me musically (as opposed to lyrically) there is just good music, mediocre music (which is where a good deal of CCM is today in my opinion - as opposed to a few years ago when I was in highschool and I would have said the majority of CCM was good - but maybe I’m just turning old at the age of 23, lol), or bad music…
 
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Flopfoot:
My question would be, then what style of music do you want Christians to play in so that it isn’t secular? Are you a musician, have you tried writing music before? There’s not that many different chord progressions which sound pleasing to the ear, not that many different kinds of scales that can be used, and not that many different sounds that it’s possible to make on a limited budget. I reckon that there is a third possible reason why Christians play in secular styles: Because its a hell of a lot easier to play a stlye that’s tested and true and all the instruments naturally work well in, than to invent a whole new style of playing music just to be different. And it’s also a lot cheaper.
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I never said that Christians should invent their own style of music. You are jumping to conclusions. I do not consider a style of music “secular” simply because it has secular music composed for it. I would consider traditional orchestral and choral music appropriate genres for Christians to compose in. These styles have been around for centuries, and are noted for their high quality, and lasting worth. Also, the foundations for classical styles were set in Catholic monastaries, giving them directly Christian connotations. When I mention “secular genres” of music, I am talking about genres which were developed in an anti-Christian and are notorious for their anti-Christian messages and values and poor quality (rap, rock, etc).

Here is an analogy for you: Let us say that a Church is being constructed and a large, stained glass window is supposed to be installed on the front of it, but the shape of the of the window cannot be decided upon. One person suggests a triangle. The triange is a shape that has been used in secular architecture, but it is very generic and does not have anti-Christian connotations. Then another person suggests a swastika. Techincally, the swastika is just a shape; an unusual shape, but still a shape. But it has become notorious as a symbol of Nazi Germany, and brings thoughts of a very anti-Christian nature to mind at the mere sight of it.

Do you understand my point of view better now?
 
Ah, that makes a bit more sense now.
But I don’t think that genres like pop, rock and hip hop were originally developed as anti-Christian - they have always been secular, true, but they just got hijacked by a few notorius anti-Christians. A lot of modern music styles have their roots in pretty wholesome 50s and 60s blues, rock n roll, and up tempo 70s RnB.

Another thing is, you could look at it from a different way. Instead of saying that the non-Christian genre is making Christian music less Christian, you could say that making Christian music in a certain genre makes the genre less non-Christian. By making things like Christian black metal and death metal, we take it away from the secular and satanic artists who used to be able to relate that genre to their anti-Christian agenda but can’t any more.
 
Young Christian:
Though I respect modern Christian music for its intent of promoting Christian values, in some ways, I find it quite controversial. I personally feel that, by choosing to write and perform modern, very secular styles of music with Christian lyrics, modern Christian artists and song writers are going against the Bible’s teaching about being in the world, but not of the world. I can think of no reason, other than the fear of being “too different” from the secular world, to play music in styles which are secular through and though. Another thing which bothers me about the music, (which is somewhat tied into the above issue) is its general lack of formality and reverence. I believe that God should always be treated with the greatest of respect, and, while the messages of the songs themselves may glorify God, the lazy, informal ways in which they are delivered do not. What do you think about this issue?
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I know everyone is a critic. What do you mean by modern Christian music. What is euphamistically known as “Contemporary Christian Music” aka CCM or those hymns we sing at Mass which seem to be a product of Victorian sentimentalism and 1960’s and 1970’s navel gazing? Neither do God justice. CCM, in most cases is just a bad imitation of secular music, though I like Derek Webb and Phil Keaggy. Catholic Artists for the most part, while sincere, just don’t do anything for me.

As for the hymns we sing at Mass, in a word, Yuck! These illegitimate children of the “Guitar” Mass are just awful. I mean singing about the “seashore” and such. The Roman Catholic Church has a beautiful tradition of great liturgical music and we get stuck, for the most part, with this stuff from Oregon (or I was refer to it Dead & Gone) Liturgical Press.

When it comes to liturgical music we don’t need “relevent” we need music that makes us focus on Christ and music that honors God. Instead we get stuff from the 1970’s on that is all about us.

Yes, I have told you how I really feel.
 
Young Christian:
Though I respect modern Christian music for its intent of promoting Christian values, in some ways, I find it quite controversial. I personally feel that, by choosing to write and perform modern, very secular styles of music with Christian lyrics, modern Christian artists and song writers are going against the Bible’s teaching about being in the world, but not of the world. I can think of no reason, other than the fear of being “too different” from the secular world, to play music in styles which are secular through and though. Another thing which bothers me about the music, (which is somewhat tied into the above issue) is its general lack of formality and reverence. I believe that God should always be treated with the greatest of respect, and, while the messages of the songs themselves may glorify God, the lazy, informal ways in which they are delivered do not. What do you think about this issue?
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Another problem is that it mostly appeals to only Christian audiences. Christian music could be used to evangelize if it were geared for people who are non-Christians. The true potental for Christian music to be used to reach out to the lost has been mostly abandoned and ignored.
 
Young Christian said:
1. Though the artist obviously wants be different from the world to some extent by performing Christian music, he is afraid that if he does not perform music of a very secular style, he will seem “too different” from the secular world for his taste.
  1. The artist wants Christianity to appeal to seculars, and, therefore, performs music which will make Christianity seem in harmony with the world.
Click to expand...
Or, maybe the artist just likes the style of music. shrug I do understand what you’re saying about the swastika, but I don’t think the example is entirely compatible with Christian music. Having said that, I don’t listen to distinctly Christian music all, or even most, of the time. There IS some pretty good secular stuff out there (or music by artists who are Christian, but don’t write all Christian songs).
 
Well written popular music is good poetry. Some songs can really trigger something in us. A memory, a feeling, or an interesting idea or perspective we never thought of before. I like pop music (actually I like all styles of music). What I find is that I get bored of secular pop music much quicker than CCM. I find that the poetry in CCM is much more meaningfull to me.
Some of it does play on the secular radio. I love it when one of my teenagers starts singing along to my CCM radio.
I also never thought I would ever appreciate rap or hiphop but I have even found some of that style in CCM that I like.
I also like the variety on one of the stations I listen to. The styles are all over the board from extreme metal, rap, punk, reggae and pop. The unfortunate thing is you do have to suffer a lot of mediocre to catch a few really interesting pieces.
 
I think it is a good thing when Christian music sounds secular, until you LISTEN to the words. Lots of kids like to surf the stations… so they come across a catchy tune, something they like to listen to, they listen longer. Then, lo and behold, a Christian radio station… hmm sounds like a good thing to me. We have 3 Christian radio stations available in my area. One is local, the other two are national. They play all styles of music…from worship to hip hop to rap to southern rock and roll, to ska, alternative, etc. There is so much variety… I dont know what Christian music you are listening to, but really, you ought to check out more than just a few songs. There really are excellent, uplifting, God adoring, God honoring songs out there. Much better to have “in your head, on your lips and in your heart” than anything secular I’ve come across.
 
Well Ned flanders ex girlfriend made a good point when she told Ned that her band left her to form a pop group. And how easy it was for them because .
“All you have to do is replace Jesus with baby”
 
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