Problems With Mormon Beliefs

[Religio71]

ParkerD,

Thanks for the response.

What is the difference between Prophet Joseph Smith saying that God the Father is an exalted man, and a “perfected man”?

Your quotes from the King Follett Discourse seem to beg many questions. For example-“Here, then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves–to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done–by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.” This seems to mean that we have to learn to be as God the Father is, and that through exaltation, we will be sitting in glory with everlasting power, just like God the Father.

What does it mean that the Father lived on an earth and became a resurrected Being? Now I know that this is probably more than any Prophet has speculated on. What I mean is, Smith taught that God the Father lived on an earth, and by saying that Jesus Christ did everything the Father did, this means that there was a God before God the Father. Is there evidence that this is a restored belief?

I can understand though that you believe that even if God the Father lived on an earth, He was still always God, if we are using Jesus as the model of that. Catholics believe that Jesus Christ was and is always God, and when he was on earth, he was fully God and fully man. So in your belief, this could apply to God the Father. There doesn’t seem to be any ancient precedent to this belief however. And it seems that Smith was implying that God the Father was not always God with this statement:

“We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another.”

 

[ParkerD]

Religio71,
Here are responses to your questions. Thanks for asking.

ParkerD,
Thanks for the response.

What is the difference between Prophet Joseph Smith saying that God the Father is an exalted man, and a “perfected man”?

The adjective and noun “perfected man” would seem to imply a man who became perfect after having been less than perfect. “Exalted man” would mean “one who was a male mortal who became exalted and immortal”. It could also mean One such as Jesus Christ who came to earth after having been in an exalted station as God the Son and who returned to the station of being exalted, after living a mortal life.

Your quotes from the King Follett Discourse seem to beg many questions. For example-“Here, then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves–to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done–by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.” This seems to mean that we have to learn to be as God the Father is, and that through exaltation, we will be sitting in glory with everlasting power, just like God the Father.

The words kings and priests to God have a particular meaning that conveys that God the Father will always be the Supreme Ruler of the universe, though being exalted means having omnipotence because that is what exalted means–in other words (the words of the Apostle John) “he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; …even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.” (Rev. 2:26-28)

What does it mean that the Father lived on an earth and became a resurrected Being? Now I know that this is probably more than any Prophet has speculated on. What I mean is, Smith taught that God the Father lived on an earth, and by saying that Jesus Christ did everything the Father did, this means that there was a God before God the Father. Is there evidence that this is a restored belief?

Joseph Smith said that God the Father was a self-existent Being. He wanted other intelligences to be able to advance as He had advanced, so He devoted Himself to bringing a plan into effect to accomplish that, through His perfect Son, Jesus Christ. As far as I am concerned, God the Father resurrected Himself through knowing the laws that pertain to resurrection, after He had lived in a mortality, the same as Jesus Christ did, who resurrected Himself through the power of the Father as well as His own knowledge of how to implement that power. I don’t think we have enough knowledge from what Joseph Smith is quoted as saying, to understand whether God the Father had a Father in Heaven in the same way that Jesus had a Father in Heaven. If so, it was in another prior universe. I don’t think there is evidence to my knowledge anyway, that there was a belief about this that could now be considered a “restored belief”, but certainly joint heirship with Jesus Christ is a restored belief, right from the book of Revelation.

I can understand though that you believe that even if God the Father lived on an earth, He was still always God, if we are using Jesus as the model of that. Catholics believe that Jesus Christ was and is always God, and when he was on earth, he was fully God and fully man. So in your belief, this could apply to God the Father. There doesn’t seem to be any ancient precedent to this belief however. And it seems that Smith was implying that God the Father was not always God with this statement:

“We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another.”

I agree that I know of no ancient precedent for God the Father’s progression multi-eons of time ago in the past eternities. I think the implication from the King Follett Sermon and the Lectures on Faith is that there was a prior universe and that our universe is where God the Father is the Supreme Ruler from all eternity to all eternity, and where Jesus is the First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, the Firstborn of the Father and He who will be the Commander of all the righteous during the final winding up scenes of this earth after the soon-to-come Millenium.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Your question has been answered. The passage says they can be married to one wife. It does not state that they must be married. Jesus was not married. Neither were all of the Apostles.

To the Orthodox, my understanding is that they could choose a married priest to ordain as bishop. The practice is to not, for practical reasons, in that a bishop puts all his energies and attentions into his duties as bishop. Either the marital relationship, or the bishop’s diocese, would suffer.

That is exactly right Rebecca! The priest at our parish has a huge load on him already! I could not imagine how he would attend to his wife and children if he was married! That is a scary thought! The marriage would suffer horribly! I don’t think he would be able to have a relationship with his children at all if he was married!

 

[ParkerD]

That is exactly right Rebecca! The priest at our parish has a huge load on him already! I could not imagine how he would attend to his wife and children if he was married! That is a scary thought! The marriage would suffer horribly! I don’t think he would be able to have a relationship with his children at all if he was married!

Hi, Lamb of God Girly,
'Hope all is well with you and your family.
The priest could learn what Moses learned from his father-in-law, Jethro, to delegate and thus let other people grow by serving.

 

[Religio71]

Remember though that there are Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox priests that are married, and I hope that their marriages do not suffer. And of course we also have both celibate and married deacons, which conforms with the above passage. Again, although the LDS Church claims a restoration of the Gospel and the priesthood keys, it seems interesting that they ordain teenaged deacons, which also most likely did not have an ancient precedent.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Hey Parker!! Good to hear from you!! It has been ages since I’ve been able to get on here…LOL Hope you are well!

Hi, Lamb of God Girly,
'Hope all is well with you and your family.
The priest could learn what Moses learned from his father-in-law, Jethro, to delegate and thus let other people grow by serving.

Parker, I do have a concern. It seems to me that the LDS faith was created by human beings brain, and not that of God. I’ll tell you why I feel like that; there isn’t anything that goes beyond what a human brain can think up. For instance: We feel as though our human brain can not possibly even think of the Eternal Divineness Of God and all the things in Heaven. It seems only a human brain would make up something like: “We will be married in heaven” or “maybe be exalted enough to have our own planet and have many wives and spirit children” this all sounds so made up to me! For us Catholics, it is much harder to imagine what we will be like or what Heaven is, “heaven” or “happiness” in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father that takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit." Now that is a very hard thing for our minds to imagine. I do not do well at explaining things I’m thinking in my head, so I hope you can get the gist of what I’m trying to say…LOL

It really is good to hear from you!
God Bless,
Alisha

 

[ParkerD]

Hey Parker!! Good to hear from you!! It has been ages since I’ve been able to get on here…LOL Hope you are well!

Parker, I do have a concern. It seems to me that the LDS faith was created by human beings brain, and not that of God. I’ll tell you why I feel like that; there isn’t anything that goes beyond what a human brain can think up. For instance: We feel as though our human brain can not possibly even think of the Eternal Divineness Of God and all the things in Heaven. It seems only a human brain would make up something like: “We will be married in heaven” or “maybe be exalted enough to have our own planet and have many wives and spirit children” this all sounds so made up to me! For us Catholics, it is much harder to imagine what we will be like or what Heaven is, “heaven” or “happiness” in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father that takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit." Now that is a very hard thing for our minds to imagine. I do not do well at explaining things I’m thinking in my head, so I hope you can get the gist of what I’m trying to say…LOL

It really is good to hear from you!
God Bless,
Alisha

Alisha,
Thank you for responding, and for wishing us well. I have a daughter who had been sick but is doing so much better–it really is a blessing. Another daughter is graduating from high school next week.

I think I do understand what you wrote. Believe me, I don’t pretend to comprehend what being “in charge” of an earth would be like, at all. I do think it would be much simpler to just say, “we’ll find out when we get there, what heaven is like.” But then when I think about what Jesus taught about the “faith of a grain of mustard seed” and about being one with Him, and about John’s writing about becoming a joint heir with Christ, then I have to think that Christ has some very big plans for us, in conjunction with God the Father who sent Him to earth to show us the way. I also assure you that when Christ said, “What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder,” He really did mean it, and He was not just talking about this life.

I really do wish you and your family all the best. Thanks for sharing your deep thinking. It made sense to me.