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abcdefg
Guest
we ascend into heaven or decend into hell. but how about purgatory?
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puzzleannie
Guest
Only Jesus ascended into heaven. We will be assumed into heaven when the time comes, like Mary.
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Fidelis
Guest
Actually, we do neither since it is only in a manner of speaking that we “ascend” or “descend.” Heaven is not a location above the clouds, but it is where the direct presence of God is. Hell is the exact opposite.
Since Purgatory is considered an “ante-room” for those who are destined for heaven, if we “ascend” to heaven, Purgatory is somewhere “along the way.”
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Trelow
Guest
Apostles Creed:
He descended into hell
I’d say descend.
He descended into hell
I’d say descend.
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Bob_Baran
Guest
Apostles Creed:
He descended into hell
I’d say descend
I agree with Fidelis. We just do not know.
He descended into hell
I’d say descend
I agree with Fidelis. We just do not know.
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convertmjh
Guest
I would probably say descend. I recommend St. Catherine’s Fire of Love. It is an excellent book. It is really comforting. She says the only souls happier than in purgatory are in heaven. And that the purifiying fires are the glow of God’s love. It really is beautiful.
J
jmm08
Guest
This week I saw “Nanny 911” on TV.
A couple had failed to wean their children from pacifiers and from sipping cups. When the nanny showed up, there came a time when the nanny took the pacifiers and sipping cups away. The children cried all night the first night. The parents also suffered and were upset because the children were crying. All of the suffering was actually self-imposed even though it seemed quite intense to those who were suffering.
I thought to myself that perhaps this is what purgatory may be like. Because we have attachments that need to be removed.
I dare anybody to take up gardening and not learn from it many spiritual lessons (such as many parables in the Gospel of Matthew).
When I pulled out some turnips, of course they need to be processed some before bringing them into the house. The first time I had brought them into the house without cleaning them. There was a lot of dirt to wash out and the sink was a mess – with bugs and all the dirt. So now I now better and take a pail of water (for washing) and another bucket (for the cleaned turnip roots and greens).
When you pull a turnip out of the ground, there is some dirt hanging on to the root. There might even be a worm or some bugs. These things are not the fault of the turnip. Some of the leaves may not be so good. Maybe they wilted or are yellow.
The first thing I do is to cut off the top. Then wash the turnip root and set it into the bucket to take inside. Then I sort through the leaves and keep as much as what is good. I wash those greens as well and set them into the bucket to take inside.
I wonder if purgatory may be like processing turnips.
We are living in a sin sick world. Our very surroundings may not be especially pleasing to the Lord. But it is where we are, and therefore He cares for us and cares for our environment.
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Katholikos
Guest
Purgatory is a process, not a place. So the answer is neither.
jmm08, I like your cleaning turnips analogy! Well said.
JMJ Jay
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Hesychios
Guest
This is a great thread!
It illustrates that whatever we may think, the best we can do is come up with analogies.
No wonder Christ taught in parables!
It illustrates that whatever we may think, the best we can do is come up with analogies.
No wonder Christ taught in parables!
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GAssisi
Guest
At first I wondered “what is so fascinating about the analogical language?” Then I remembered Hesychios is an Eastern Catholic, and it must have been refreshing for him to see Westerners utilize such apophatic jargon.
Greg
Greg
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Exporter
Guest
Peter Kreeft, the author of Angels and Demons and what do we know about them (Ignatius Press)
It is said that Angels and Demons are pure Spirits as are souls of humans.God is a pure Spirit. Heaven, purgatory and Hell are Spiritual. They do not occupy volume nor space.
If they do not occupy space then how can a man say “where” they are? If they don’t exist in the physical…the how can one point “up” or “down” to say “where” they are?
In the Apostle’s Creed we read “descended” and “ascended”. Who wrote this? I have read it was refined before the year 150, and was taken from the earliest Christians. Certainly they were not writting from a modern scientific point of view. So they said heaven was “up” since Jesus went “up”. How can a spiritual heaven be pointed to as if it were a place?
It is said that Angels and Demons are pure Spirits as are souls of humans.God is a pure Spirit. Heaven, purgatory and Hell are Spiritual. They do not occupy volume nor space.
If they do not occupy space then how can a man say “where” they are? If they don’t exist in the physical…the how can one point “up” or “down” to say “where” they are?
In the Apostle’s Creed we read “descended” and “ascended”. Who wrote this? I have read it was refined before the year 150, and was taken from the earliest Christians. Certainly they were not writting from a modern scientific point of view. So they said heaven was “up” since Jesus went “up”. How can a spiritual heaven be pointed to as if it were a place?
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JimG
Guest
This is an analogy that has likely never been used in Theology 101, but I like it.
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puzzleannie
Guest
Jesus ascended into heaven as the NT clearly states, and his resurrected glorified body is “there”, also Mary is there, body and soul, and presumably Elijah and Enoch, if they also were bodily assumed into heaven. Our bodies will be resurrected on the last day and presumably will occuply space as they do now, unless Jesus’s teaching about not marrying is interpreted to mean otherwise. Visions of the saints talk about bodily suffering in both purgatory and hell (of different types, purposes of course), and presumably on resurrection “day” the bodies of the condemned will also be consigned to hell. My best bet is to get Prof. Kreeft’s book and find out more about how these states can be both spiritual dimensions and states of being, and accommodate our physical bodies.
J
jmm08
Guest
Yes, but the problem then is what I do next with the turnips.jmm08:
This is an analogy that has likely never been used in Theology 101, but I like it.
They are cut up and put in a pot to boil. I eat the turnip greens as a nourishing vegetable. Often the turnip roots are put with other things to make a stew. What once was only a turnip has now been digested and become a part of me.
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