Professional counselling

[Lara]

I’m wondering why many Catholics on this forum are so quick to recommend counselling. If you have been one of these responders, have you experienced counselling first hand?

If somebody writes the forum, they’re looking for a cross-section of faithful Catholics to give them ordinary suggestions. Why would a counsellor do so much better than that?

In my opinion, a lot of psychologists are pretty nutty themselves, and doesn’t it weaken the marital bond to air your dirty laundry to a third party? Why can’t people just slowly putz away at handling their marriages? A lot of you are very worried about abuse. But, how would you feel if your husband asked you to go to counselling because you’re too controlling? Many women are really running their husbands around these days. They get jealous if he leaves the house just to visit his sister. I’ve seen this in my family. They can’t seem to be alone for an evening. Take up some hobbies women! Even on this forum, there is such a strong feminist tilt in many of the replies. Even if you go to counselling, it doesn’t mean it’s a cure-all. Next week a new problem will crop up. Counselling is very expensive; you’d need a counsel session every two days to stay on top of the problems that men create! They’re very unpredictable people, always leaving messes for you to clean up. Unless you get a discount, and even if you do, you will be spending money that should go to the kids. Where do counsellors go when their spouses are acting up?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Because online advice is very, very poor in comparison to what a face to face professional can give.

There are many, many therapists who ARE Catholic professional. They are wonderful. Many have been to counseling themselves. The Church is very much in favor of seeking professional advice.

And, I’m sorry if you’re in a position that you feel that you’d need counseling every two days to deal with men. That’s not healthy. That’s an incredibly sad way to live.

My husband does NOT leave messes to clean up. He has minor flaws, like every human being, and there are things that he needs to improve, but he is an adult.

Counsel isn’t a cure-all, no matter if it’s spiritual, psychological or career. No one sane goes to a career counselor simply expecting to be handed a job. They go so they can improve their resume, learn how to script a cover letter, practice interview techniques and know which jobs to apply for. Good psychological and spiritual counseling works much the same way. You learn how to improve your actions, learn how to create scripts with difficult people, find inner strength and stamina and know what situations to engage, and what might be cause to address.

Let’s say that a husband refuses to put his dirty dinner dish in the dishwasher. Wife is MAD, sees the husband as lazy. But perhaps he sees her arranging the dishes every darned time…so he figures, why bother, makes more work. But when it goes unspoken it becomes an issue. Counselling teaches people how to communicate these things. Why suffer for years “putz-ing” at fixing these points of contention when one can address them head on and enjoy years and years of good company.

My friend had a miserable, awful first year of marriage. She waited until she had small children and was nearly 10 years in before she put her foot down and demanded counseling. It took about 5 years of monthly sessions but they have WHOLE new marriage. They needed to work at their behaviors and communications. No doubt, had they done nothing they would have been divorced, become abusive or simply been utterly miserable --and therefore been poor parents. Many of the issues that marital therepy are recommended for are ones that children notice and suffer tremendously from in marriage.

Counseling also can open someone’s eyes to real issues. You know if a woman or man said, “my spouse locked me out of our bedroom all night because they were mad about XYZ” it’s easy to ignore internet posters that say that’s abusive. It’s much harder when you have a therapist, priest or mentor staring you in the face and challenging your perception of reality.

 

[pianistclare]

Everyone experiences counseling in the confessional to some degree or another.
People who post and then don’t take advice are looking for justification. They want people to tell them what they are doing, or allowing to happen in their lives, or are thinking is just peachy. This is not helpful. If people in real life tell you that you need help, then you probably need help.
When I recommend counseling, I want people to know that what they are dealing with is SERIOUS.
Online strangers aren’t really going to solve anything beyond recommending counseling. Most of the time, one has to fix themselves. Going to a professional, whether it be a priest or a licensed medical professional is up to them. But it has to be dealt with in real life. THIS is not real life.

 

[Pug]

A lot of you are very worried about abuse. But, how would you feel if your husband asked you to go to counselling because you’re too controlling?

In the case of being worried about abuse, I would not recommend joint counseling, myself. I’d suggest one person of the couple to go, the one who is in distress, and let the counselor take it from there. My experience is that joint counseling (both of the couple in the same room) is a disaster in certain scenarios.

Anyway, if it is really abuse, really, I’d be telling the person where to run.

 

[DarkLight]

Family counseling works when all parties want to fix the relationship. It’s hard for most of us to be completely objective - for example, you can easily end up in a situation where both parties feel very put upon and like they’re doing all the hard work. So in the case of marital difficulties, it can be helpful to have a third party who’s not involved to help people see it from the other person’s perspective. They can also help people learn to communicate without getting defensive and in a way that gets to the heart of the issue.

The trouble with abuse cases is that, usually, the abusive party doesn’t actually want to fix the relationship. It’s working just fine for them, and fixing the relationship would mean that they lose much of the benefits they’re getting. Since they don’t actually want to fix the relationship, they’re not going to be honestly engaging in therapy, and if the therapist isn’t trained in abuse they might not catch on.

 

[Mary_Ellen]

I’ve recommended counseling on these forums, I don’t know which ones, specifically…probably not on “Casual Discussion” so please don’t yell at me if my response is inappropriate.

have you experienced counselling first hand?

Yes, I’ve experienced counseling first hand, and it has saved my life. I’ve recommended it to individuals, not couples, when I recognize in others what I’ve experienced in myself or have seen in others. I’m also on the Board of Directors of the mental health organization that provides my on-going individual therapy. I’ve had 4 therapists over the past 20 years, 3 psychiatrists, and 2 psychiatric nurse practitioners. Each and every one has been quite respectful of my faith perspective.

Counseling is not a cure-all, I agree. But praying is not, either. Would you just sit at home and pray that your bent and broken leg will heal? No, you would go to a professional. Going to a psychiatrist and getting on the proper medication regimen when you’re suffering from suicidal or obsessive thoughts is much the same thing.

Sometimes people come to these forums seeking advice that they should be seeking from a mental health or religious professional. That’s why some of us will refer them to counseling or to a priest. Because we care and we want what’s best for those who post here.

Be at peace.

 

[Lara]

How can I be at peace if you’re accusing me of yelling at me?

Now I’m going to have to respond. I was referring more to psychologists than psychiatrists. My best friend is on 15 different psychiatric medications. I know without them, that it’s hard to continue to choose to live. I understand the place of psychiatry.

I wrote one post where I was trying to decide to go to a baby shower with two gay guys in attendance, and somebody answering-1ke- thought I needed counselling for my dark thoughts.

If that’s the best people can offer, it would be better to have a banner at the top of this forum that says, “Get Counselling” and all of us just go home.

I think ordinary problems deserve ordinary solutions.

I’m not happy that you take things so personally as often happens on forums. I didn’t have Mary Ellen in my head when I wrote the post. Try to see where a poster is coming from rather than how they’re wounding you.

Xanthippe_voorhees, you need to enrich your sense of humor. I was exaggerating for dramatic effect with respect to needing counselling every two days. I know your husband is well behaved based on how tight you would run your ship. I’m pretty sure if he made a mess, he’s be sent running for the hills. P.S. If a woman gets MAD because a man doesn’t put his dish away, there’s already a big problem that counselling won’t help.

To everybody, I’ve decided I can’t help people on this forum. Auf wiedersehen.

 

[Mary_Ellen]

@Lara was not yelling at me, in either of her posts.

She will be in my prayers and I still wish her peace.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_voorhees, you need to enrich your sense of humor. I was exaggerating for dramatic effect with respect to needing counselling every two days. I know your husband is well behaved based on how tight you would run your ship. I’m pretty sure if he made a mess, he’s be sent running for the hills. P.S. If a woman gets MAD because a man doesn’t put his dish away, there’s already a big problem that counselling won’t help.

My husband is not “well behaved” because of the way I run my ship. My husband behaves like a responsible adult man who is in charge of his life. If he made a mess, he’d clean it…because he’s an adult, not a toddler. If he couldn’t clean the mess or was overwhelmed I’d expect him to ask for help–ya’ know like a reasonable adult.

I’m going to take it you are not married and not accustomed to the things that occur in a marriage that are enough to drive one crazy. Things like not replacing the toilet paper or leaving a dish out, or leaving shoes askew…these are actually common little things in even the healthiest of marriages that can turn into big things. And, they are often seen as non-events by the person they’re not bothering. My husband dislikes having anything on the coffee table. I use it as my command center. It bothered him but we were adults and talked about it. Now we have a couple of end tables so I can have my drink and notebook handy. But not all couples have the ability to discuss things like that. And often these little things turn into much bigger things.

Like the example of my good friend. She and her husband were both a bit immature going into things…they got irritated and held grudges. Eventually, these little things became toxic and 10 years in they had an abysmal, near abusive marriage (not physically, they just constantly snipped at each other and tried to “one up” each other). It took 5 years for them to untangle their bad habits, grudges and other issues as well as help their children adjust to how life should be.

You sound very young and very insulated. Perhaps you may be better served getting a bit of life experience.

And yes, I do think it would be wise to have a disclaimer that advice here is not professional and that it is wise to seek professional advice on issues that cause emotional distress.

 

[Simon62]

I would guess if something is just not changing in your life due to a glaring or hidden problem and is something prayer or a priest can’t help you with then counselling with a professional is a necessary act. I can’t comment on marriage, behavioural problems, etc., but I sure as heck needed professional counselling after 40 years of burying my childhood sexual abuse and that of my two sisters. That is one load of hell you carry around and you can’t fix it yourself. The professional may not fix it, but can make moving on in life a lot easier in certain respects. So yes, I would recommend advising counselling to someone if I thought they were definitely blocked as a fully functioning human being.
As far as expense, I don’t know. I had to tell my GP first, (not good), then I was referred and was able to have counselling free.

 

[Lara]

I have a ton of life experience. I’ve lived with many different people. I’ve learned not to sweat the small stuff. Not replacing the toilet paper is not worthy of a thought. If it’s empty, you replace it, whether you’re the first or last person. Leaving a dish out isn’t worth a thought. I leave about 50 dishes out at any given time. If somebody were bothered by it, they’re welcome to start washing dishes. These things should never lead to bigger things, as you state. I’d have to investigate your good friend’s marriage to comment, but is it possible there’s a larger problem such as a religious difference?

I wish I were young and insulated but alas, I am not.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

No religious difference, just maturity. You don’t need to investigate anything. It is very common for small things to become big things.

50 dishes out? Ummmm…I have a family and I don’t even think we have 50 dishes…

…ok maybe 50 if I emptied out ALL my cupboards of cups, plates, and silverware. I’ve had a dozen people over and I don’t think we’ve used 50 dishes.

…if someone’s bothered by 50 dishes dirtied by a single person they should wash them? Yeah, now you’re just baiting us.

You might be aged but there’s definitely a lack of experience on your part.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

I am married, but I have had roommates in the past. There is a big difference between my roommates leaving dirty dishes out and my spouse doing exactly the same thing. But perhaps that’s just me.

 

[Lara]

You can stop with the personal attacks. I tried to answer you graciously, and I got more of the same abuse. I’m not lacking in experience. I’m far older than you and I do not need to tell you my marital status. People come from very different paths, which you may not know the intricacies of, and which they may not wish to reveal to you. Believe it or not, it’s actually very difficult to follow the Catholic way in certain life paths. I’m not interested in giving away all kinds of personal information to people like you who won’t give me the benefit of the doubt.

I’m trying to suggest a different way of life to you. I’m trying to say that people getting irked by little “problems” might choose to become less irked by them. I think it’s a recent phenomenon that women are becoming pickier and ready to correct people around them at any moment. I’m prone to this, being a part of society, and picking up all the cues. But I don’t think all this correcting is making women happier, nor children happier.

Happiness is not gained just because you remember to always place your shoes properly, fill toilet paper rolls on time, clean dishes, or not ever offend others. You can be an absolute choir girl, and still you won’t be happier for it. And still people will be unkind to you. And you can keep correcting others, but it doesn’t mean your relationships will be happier for it.

I think we could try to be heartier and roll with life more. My original point is I don’t think that ordinary problems require a counsellor. They are all trained to think in the “me” ways of thinking. “You need to take care of yourself before you can love your kids adequately.” You need some “me” time. The happiest person I know never thought in those ways.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Sure, we can come from different paths, but most of the saints and doctors of the church saught spiritual council, and what we today would recognize as psychological advice, from mentors. The whole confessor-penitent relationship was intended to be one in which a person can partake of wisdom from someone more experienced.

Today, Priests have a very different role and we have professionals in that role. Nothing wrong with that.

It’s hardly a personal attack to suggest that it might not be healthy for one person to dirty and leave 50 dishes around.

You have your viewpoint, very flawed, that little things don’t add up, or that one needs to correct others for some social reason or that keeping tidy = perfect. It doesn’t pass the sniff test.

People do not come on this board with “ordinary” problems. They come here because they’re basically bleeding out. It’s not a good situation. People aren’t coming here looking for help because they know what to do, but because they don’t know what to do and they’ve run out of options themselves.

Many times a screen is a poor substitute for actually talking with a professional…which is more often than not very needed.

You state that people would do well to be less irritated, but for many, that’s not as easy as clapping their hands. They need help in that, guidance, assistance, etc. And that is NORMAL.

It’s funny because you cite things like “me” ways of thinking and needing to care for yourself as bad. Even the Catholic church recommends that people make a regular retreat where they focus on only their spiritual life. Why would the Church recommend something that would be opposite the happiness you claim?

Source: https://www.osv.com/Article/TabId/4...leID/10536/Why-go-on-a-Spiritual-Retreat.aspx

The very idea of a retreat is about taking care of yourself spiritually. The Church wants that. So why would they desire any less for your physical or mental health?

Sure, some people take it too far, but it dosn’t change the fact that it’s right there–the Church asks us to make a retreat to work on ourselves.

Very few people posting are talking about ordinary problems. And even if they are all “ordinary” it is still good to seek the knowlege of someone who knows more than you do. In this day and age that person is likely to be someone who works on a professional level.

 

[Lara]

I think we’re talking past each other here. And yes it’s insulting that you keep saying I’m lacking experience, insulated, young, and all the things you said. You’re not being the kindest person you can be with me. It could be that bluntness which the Dutch are known for, indicated by your last name. I’m not sure. I don’t think you really read my post or had time to absorb it actually. But you can go on promoting counselling. I won’t stop you.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I think we’re talking past each other here. And yes it’s insulting that you keep saying I’m lacking experience, insulated, young, and all the things you said. You’re not being the kindest person you can be with me. It could be that bluntness which the Dutch are known for, indicated by your last name. I’m not sure. I don’t think you really read my post or had time to absorb it actually. But you can go on promoting counselling. I won’t stop you.

LOL. My name is a character from a TV Show.

One does not need to dissect every word to understand the meaning of your post. You’re experienced, your aged and you know thinks. Mmmmkay? But your example WAS ludicrous and something that would be expected out of a very young person with limited experience. I cannot name one responsible adult who would mess 50 dishes and find that if someone had an issue with it than the person with an issue should just do it.

Eww.