'Proof that the Mass is invalid'

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badegine

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Hi,

This is my first post on the Catholic Answers forum, and I think I need to explain a litte about myself before explaining my post. I am currently a non-practising British CofE Protestant (though I’ve been brought up in the faith), and have recently felt the call of the Catholic Church. I don’t think I ready just yet though to make the leap and go to see a priest about it! Anyway - for as long as I’ve known about the call (about 2 months), I’ve been trying to gather all of thie information I can about Catholic ways etc (Catholic Answers has been the most invaluable aid to me with my questions), when I today - in a search for some free mp3s on Catholic teaching I could listen to away from my computer - stumbled across SermonAudio.com.

On this site - supposedly Chritian - is a whole section devoted to ‘Christians Evangelising Catholics’! I really didn’t know what to make of it - are we not Christians anymore!?! Anyway - I took a look inside, and found numerous free audio sermons on the topic - including an entire set by a certain ‘Dr. Bill Jackson’ who seems to have been mentioned on this site before as a notorious ‘evangeliser’. However, I took a look at some of this man’s titles - and some really did alarm me - most notably:

‘Is the Catholic Church a Christian Denomination’
‘Marks of a Cult’
‘Proofs that the Mass is Invalid’

I really would like to listen to some of these recordings, as I fear their content - but in my fragile state of faith at the moment during my lone conversion (hopefully I will involve the Church sometime… 😉 ) I think it best not to - just incase I come across something that makes me doubt my faith.

Today therefore, I’d like to ask a few things from you - which I hope you can help me with even though I’m not yet a ‘proper’ Catholic… If someone out there could please listen to jsut some of the recordings, and tell me what you think of them, and if their content can be put down by apologetics, and secondly your advice on my listening to the recordings…I mean, can you guarantee to help me if I have questions afterwards?

The link to the site is:

Dr. Jackson’s ‘Evangelising’ Sermon list
(Take a look down the page and click on some of the titles I mentioned above (or any others!)

‘Proof that the Mass is invalid’
(Mentioned above, but really worries me!)

The Homepage
(A whole section on ‘Christians Evangelising Catholics’!)

I’m really sorry to ask so much of you all - I know how busy you all must be - I’m just really quite worried about the whole ‘evanglising’ thing - especially from some of the titles I gave above.

Are we not Christian anymore? - Why do ‘peaceful’ Christians feel such a need for harsh evangelising? Why is the Pope the Anti-Christ?

Please help me - I really could do with some reassurance. I love what I know of the Catholic Church - I pray the rosary every day, and feel such a stong pull towards the faith. I just feel I need to learn everything about Catholicism I can first - but things like this worry me…

Thank you all so very much,

badegine

N.B. - All of the mp3s are free to download - it asks for an email address and Zip Code, but you don’t have to give real ones…
 
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badegine:
Hi,
Are we not Christian anymore? - Why do ‘peaceful’ Christians feel such a need for harsh evangelising? Why is the Pope the Anti-Christ?
Click to expand...
Hi and welcome.

Have you read catholic.com/library/Anti_Catholic_Whoppers.asp

A lot of the anti-catholic websites have a lot of common elements that are poorly researched and easily refuted. The internet also allows fringe groups to appear much larger and more credible than they really are.

You are right in that it is sad that Christian groups would be so vitriolic, perhaps it is a case of “Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” Matt 5:11-12.

I think you are right to ignore the audio files until you have a more robust understanding (even then they probably still aren’t worth the time to listen to).
 
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badegine:
Hi,

This is my first post on the Catholic Answers forum, and I think I need to explain a litte about myself before explaining my post. I am currently a non-practising British CofE Protestant (though I’ve been brought up in the faith), and have recently felt the call of the Catholic Church. I don’t think I ready just yet though to make the leap and go to see a priest about it! Anyway - for as long as I’ve known about the call (about 2 months), I’ve been trying to gather all of thie information I can about Catholic ways etc (Catholic Answers has been the most invaluable aid to me with my questions), when I today - in a search for some free mp3s on Catholic teaching I could listen to away from my computer - stumbled across SermonAudio.com.

…
Please help me - I really could do with some reassurance. I love what I know of the Catholic Church - I pray the rosary every day, and feel such a stong pull towards the faith. I just feel I need to learn everything about Catholicism I can first - but things like this worry me…

Thank you all so very much,

badegine
Click to expand...
Hi badegine,
One thing to remember is that talking to a non-Catholic about the Catholic faith (especially the anti-Catholic guys that you have just stumbled accross) is about like asking a garbageman about rocket science. You’ll get answers, but they may be a long way from factually accurate info, right?

The suggestion that you peruse the CA Library is probably one of the best that you can get. I note , with some concern that some of tthese sources are “independent Baptists” and in my experience they are both vitriolic and abysmally ignorant of Catholicism. They make a great case against it…the problem is that what they attack is almost never something that we really teach.

I think that Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said it best when he said,
“Few people in America hate the Catholic religion, but there are many who hate what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion
—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion, Catholics would hate it too.”

Pax tecum,
 
A good book to read is “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn.
He is a former evangelical bible scholar who began going to Mass to actually learn how to refute it and ended up realizing just what a treasure the Lord left us.
It is well worth the trip to the library.
He deals with every aspect of the Mass and relates it to scripture.
Very good info…
good luck on your journey, remember Jesus is waiting for you!
 
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badegine:
…I mean, can you guarantee to help me if I have questions afterwards?
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Guarenteed.

You can either PM me, or we can talk routinely by email…
Bthal59@earthlink.net

I have downloaded the MP3s you suggested. When I have listened to them, I will either post something here, or I will send a message to you.

Thal59
 
I think that Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said it best when he said,
“Few people in America hate the Catholic religion, but there are many who hate what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion
—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion, Catholics would hate it too.”
Pax tecum,
Click to expand...
Awesome quote from the Bishop!!!
 
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freshwind:
A good book to read is “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn.
He is a former evangelical bible scholar who began going to Mass to actually learn how to refute it and ended up realizing just what a treasure the Lord left us.
It is well worth the trip to the library.
He deals with every aspect of the Mass and relates it to scripture.
Very good info…
good luck on your journey, remember Jesus is waiting for you!
Click to expand...
I second this. If you are like many of us and can’t read everything you’d like for the sake of time. Read just the first chapter (I believe it is) when Hahn visits the Catholic mass, sits in the back of the church with a notebook. Only to discover he has stepped into Heaven on Earth. It’s priceless.
 
badegine:

I have listened to about 15 minutes of “Mark of a Cult” part 1. I don’t feel I have to go any farther, but if you want to go through the material you suggested in your first post, let me know. Lets take a look at what was offered in theat first 15 minutes.
According to Dr. Jackson, the first mark of a cult that Christians should reject is extra biblical revelation. This, in and of itself, is unbiblical. In John 14, Jesus tells the apostles He will send an advocate, (comforter, or paraclete in some bibles) who will bring to mind whatever I have said to you, teach you all things, lead you into all truth, and be with you forever. Here is a promise by Christ that the Holy Spirit will teach, educate, and guide the church, yet without any mention of scripture or a bible. In John 16:12 Jesus says, “Many things yet have I to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” This passage infers that Jesus not only intentionally withheld some information, but He also infers that later, in the fullness of time, they will be taught to you, i.e. by the advocate; Holy Spirit.

All of these passages, and more, indicate clearly that the guidance and teaching of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, will be ongoing and that not everything that is to be taught will be written down since He never made any provision for written works. I have always wondered why Jesus, if He intended Sola Scriptura as Protestants claim, never wrote anything Himself. To believe that revelations outside of the bible are unacceptable, is unbiblical.

Dr. Jackson speaks against tradition in a generic fashion, never discerning the difference between the Apostolic Tradition, traditions of practice, or even from the teachings of the magesterium. Since he cannot differentiate between the three, nothing he says about them can be considered valid. It would be like an atheist taking the words of the church regarding the dual nature of Christ as both fully man and fully God. Then taking the words of two heretical groups one of which says Jesus was fully human and not divine, the other saying that Jesus was fully divine and not human. And then having the atheist declare that since “Christians” cannot make up their mind as to who Jesus was, it is proof that He never existed. Dr. Jackson is doing the same thing. He confuses Apostolic Tradition with traditions of practice with teachings of the magesterium. This is demonstrated when he cites the December birth date of Jesus, the towel of veronica, purgatory, and the mass as all being merely “tradition” in a generic sense.

He then makes blanket statements about popes who said things that future popes denied, or statements by popes that are not really true, but he never gives a specific example to support his claim. Unsubstantiated accusations are worthless.

But he has betrayed an inner prejudice against the RCC when he makes statements to the effect that Catholic apologists quoting the bible are “acting as if they believe the bible,” or how the church “hides behind” papal infallibility. Such statements send up the red flare warning the reader that this man’s opinions are biased and that he will not be able to discuss the Catholic church either with an open mind or from a position of learning.

If you have listened to the sermons, please feel free to ask specific questions you may have. It would take me many hours to type a refutation against all of Dr. Jackson’s errors.

Thal59
 
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