Proper behavior after Communion has been served

[allhers]

It is customary in my parish to kneel until it’s your pew’s turn to get in line and to remain kneeling after Communion until the priest sits down.

We kneel also until its our pews turn to get in line, have done that my entire life actually. Well, since the 1960’s anyway. Every Parish I have ever been in has done it that way too. Usually everyone kneels afterward too until the tabernacle door is closed and then the Priest sits down.

I have noticed when visiting the Shrine in our area that people do many different things, and it does kind of look like a free for all at times. (some kneel, some stand, some sit.)
For the most part though, everyone pretty much does the above, most of the time.

 

[benedictgal]

With all due respect to your sense of piety, which I do admire, I must object to this statement. Even though your comment is clearly well-meant, I believe it does more harm than good. The word “shame” does not apply here, and is out of place.

Though you may not understand Archbishop Vlazny’s thinking on the matter, please defer to it fully, out of respect for his episcopal office. It is better that we submit to the archbishop’s directions as to how our liturgies should be conducted in his archdiocese than to your opinions on the matter. He is the chief liturgist for our archdiocese, and no one else. He is within the authority given to him by God and recognized by the Holy See. Please do not encourage us or anyone else to adopt an attitude towards his rightful authority that is even remotely rebellious or judgemental, when it is humble obedience that is called for.

I was not criticizing your bishop. My comments were made in general. I was indicating that I had a concern about why one would opt to stand, especially since kneeling is an ancient and Christological posture, as Pope Benedict indicated both in the Spirit of the Liturgy (pre-papal) and in the homily he delivered last year. I say that it is a shame because, as Pope Benedict indicated in the Spirit of the Liturgy:

There are groups, of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. “It doesn’t suit our culture”, they say (which culture?) “It’s not right for a grown man to do this – he should face God on his feet”. Or again: “It’s not appropriate for redeemed man – he has been set free by Christ and doesn’t need to kneel any more”.

The former Cardinal Ratzinger adds that:

For me, the most important passage for the theology of kneeling will always be the great hymn of Christ in Philippians 2:6-11. In this pre-Pauline hymn, we hear and see the prayer of the apostolic Church and can discern within it her confession of faith in Christ. However, we also hear the voice of the Apostle, who enters into this prayer and hands it on to us, and, ultimately, we perceive here both the profound inner unity of the Old and New Testaments and the cosmic breadth of Christian faith.

The hymn presents Christ as the antitype of the First Adam. While the latter high-handedly grasped at likeness to God, Christ does not count equality with God, which is His by nature, “a thing to be grasped”, but humbles Himself unto death, even death on the Cross. It is precisely this humility, which comes from love, that is the truly divine reality and procures for Him the “name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Phil 2:5-10).

Here the hymn of the apostolic Church takes up the words of promise in Isaiah 45:23: “By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear’”. In the interweaving of Old and New Testaments, it becomes clear that, even as crucified, Jesus bears that “name above every name” – the name of the Most High – and is Himself God by nature. Through Him, through the Crucified, the bold promise of the Old Testament is now fulfilled: all bend the knee before Jesus, the One who descended, and bow to Him precisely as the one true God above all gods. The Cross has become the world-embracing sign of God’s presence, and all that we have previously heard about the historic and cosmic Christ should now, in this passage, come back into our minds.

The Christian Liturgy is a cosmic Liturgy precisely because it bends the knee before the crucified and exalted Lord. Here is the center of authentic culture - the culture of truth. The humble gesture by which we fall at the feet of the Lord inserts us into the true path of life of the cosmos.

There is much more that we might add. For example, there is the touching story told by Eusebius in his history of the Church as a tradition going back to Hegesippus in the second century. Apparently, Saint James, the “brother of the Lord”, the first bishop of Jerusalem and “head” of the Jewish Christian Church, had a kind of callous on his knees, because he was always on his knees worshipping God and begging forgiveness for his people (2, 23, 6). Again, there is a story that comes from the sayings of the Desert Fathers, according to which the devil was compelled by God to show himself to a certain Abba Apollo. He looked black and ugly, with frighteningly thin limbs, but most strikingly, he had no knees. The inability to kneel is seen as the very essence of the diabolical

Inasmuch as the GIRM does give him the option of making that determination and he is the Chief Liturgist for his Metropolitan See, I believe that it would be legitimate to ask what the reasoning behind his stance (or the stance of anyone promoting this, for that matter) is. Asking this question is not rebellion, nor is seeking clarification. In fact, such questions can (and often do) lead to positive dialogue. Please do not add words to what I have written in my post indicating that I supporting rebellion or encouraging others to do the same.

Perhaps if more priests and prelates would read what the Holy Father wrote (and continues to write) on the subject, that might be a good and sound thing to do. Oddly enough, when Cardinal Arinze made his remarks concerning the American adaptation, he found it quite laudable, saying that this is something that Rome definitely supports.

These forums are about anonymity that is why I do not mention the name of my bishop nor even the name of my parish.

 

[diggerdomer]

I was indicating that I had a concern about why one would opt to stand, especially since kneeling is an ancient and Christological posture,

Yes kneeling is.

However, standing is even more ancient and just as Christological.

Something to think about.

Cheers

 

[benedictgal]

Yes kneeling is.

However, standing is even more ancient and just as Christological.

Something to think about.

Cheers

Actually, Pope Benedict addresses this matter in his book:

Worship is one of those fundamental acts that affect the whole man. That is why bending the knee before the presence of the living God is something we cannot abandon.

In saying this, we come to the typical gesture of kneeling on one or both knees. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the verb barak, “to kneel”, is cognate with the word berek, “knee”. The Hebrews regarded the knees as a symbol of strength, to bend the knee is, therefore, to bend our strength before the living God, an acknowledgment of the fact that all that we are we receive from Him. In important passages of the Old Testament, this gesture appears as an expression of worship.

At the dedication of the Temple, Solomon kneels “in the presence of all the assembly of Israel” (II Chron 6:13). After the Exile, in the afflictions of the returned Israel, which is still without a Temple, Ezra repeats this gesture at the time of the evening sacrifice: “I … fell upon my knees and spread out my hands to the Lord my God” (Ezra 9:5). The great psalm of the Passion, Psalm 22 (“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”), ends with the promise: “Yes, to Him shall all the proud of the earth fall down; before Him all who go down to the dust shall throw themselves down” (v. 29, RSV adapted).

Thus, kneeling is an ancient posture, which, as the Holy Father points out, is also found in the Old Testament. Incidentally, the Greeks, especially Aristotle, thought that kneeling was barbaric. The Holy Father (and, even St. Augustine) counter this argument by saying that:

The kneeling of Christians is not a form of inculturation into existing customs. It is quite the opposite, an expression of Christian culture, which transforms the existing culture through a new and deeper knowledge and experience of God.

As I noted before, this is not to disrespect what a Metropolitan or an Ordinary does in their particular see. I am grateful that my bishop maintains the posture of kneeling and that we kneel before and after the reception of Holy Communion (which was the OP’s original question). What I am saying is that perhaps engaging in dialogue might help clear things up. Having served on my diocesan commission, occasions for dialogue do present themselves. Even with my pastor and my parochial vicar, there are opportunities for dialogue. In fact, this dialogue has borne some good fruit, especially with my parochial vicar.

 

[diggerdomer]

Kneeling in the Old Testament may be fine but the fact it existed in and of itself is not binding or normative on Christian liturgy. After all, there are plenty of Old Testament liturgical practices that are no longer continued by Christian or Jews (have you slaughtered a lamb recently?).

I have nothing against kneeling per se, just pointing out that it was not a normative posture for the early Christians, and that standing–as a posture of worship–can be every bit as reverential as kneeling. In fact, many early Christians wrote against Jewish worship practices to distinguish Christians from Jews.

Cheers

 

[benedictgal]

Kneeling in the Old Testament may be fine but the fact it existed in and of itself is not binding or normative on Christian liturgy. After all, there are plenty of Old Testament liturgical practices that are no longer continued by Christian or Jews (have you slaughtered a lamb recently?).

I have nothing against kneeling per se, just pointing out that it was not a normative posture for the early Christians, and that standing–as a posture of worship–can be every bit as reverential as kneeling. In fact, many early Christians wrote against Jewish worship practices to distinguish Christians from Jews.

Cheers

But, remember. St. Paul mentions kneeling. St. Peter knelt before Jesus and told him to “depart from me for I am sinful man.” Even Jesus was kneeling during his Agony in the Garden. Thus, as has been noted before, kneeling is Christological and cosmic.

Incidentally, with all due respect, I would caution against speaking about a normative posture for the early Christians, since this would have some shades of “antiquarianism”, something that the Church frowns upon.

As noted in an article from the Against All Heresies Blog:

The misguided idea of bringing the Liturgy (and the Sacraments for that matter)back to “Biblical times” and attemping to recreate “Last Supper conditions” is one that has the heresy of antiquarianism at its roots.

The Mass has its organic development. This is something that we need to recognize. By the way, we do witness the Sacrifice of the True Lamb of God at every Mass we attend. The veil between heaven and earth and time and space is lifted and we are just as much present at the Sacrifice of Calvary as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. Johna and Mary Magdalene. But, that is for another thread.

 

[diggerdomer]

But, remember. St. Paul mentions kneeling. St. Peter knelt before Jesus and told him to “depart from me for I am sinful man.” Even Jesus was kneeling during his Agony in the Garden. Thus, as has been noted before, kneeling is Christological and cosmic.

Ok, let’s grant that the Bible indicates what you say about Peter and Paul kneeling. Fine. But how does that elevate kneeling to something that is “Christological and cosmic?” I mean, Peter and Paul (not mention Jesus!) also no doubt stood, sat, walked, crouched, and so on…any number of postures…are they also then Christological and cosmic? I’m really lost here, so any clarification you could provide on how postures are Christological and cosmic would be appreciated (especially if only certain postures qualify for this standard of yours).

Incidentally, with all due respect, I would caution against speaking about a normative posture for the early Christians, since this would have some shades of “antiquarianism”, something that the Church frowns upon.

As noted in an article from the Against All Heresies Blog:

The Mass has its organic development. This is something that we need to recognize. By the way, we do witness the Sacrifice of the True Lamb of God at every Mass we attend. The veil between heaven and earth and time and space is lifted and we are just as much present at the Sacrifice of Calvary as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. Johna and Mary Magdalene. But, that is for another thread.

Again, I apologize for my ignorance and request your assistance. What exactly is antiquarianism, where does the Church frown upon it, and how did I fall into this trap? Any clarification you could provide would be helpful. I’m not familiar with the blog you mentioned, but I hope you’re not mentioning it because you think something I posted was heretical? Or did you? Why else would you post a comment from a blog with a title like that?

Cheers

 

[benedictgal]

I believe that what I have quoted from the Pope’s Spirit of the Liturgy make the points perfectly clear regarding the Christology of kneeling.

He makes this interesting noten in a homily that he preached June 2008, for the Solemnity of Corpus Christi:

At this point we cannot forget the beginning of the “Decalogue”, the Ten Commandments, where it is written: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex 20: 2-3). Here we find the meaning of the third constitutive element of Corpus Christi: kneeling in adoration before the Lord. Adoring the God of Jesus Christ, who out of love made himself bread broken, is the most effective and radical remedy against the idolatry of the past and of the present. **Kneeling before the Eucharist is a profession of freedom: those who bow to Jesus cannot and must not prostrate themselves before any earthly authority, however powerful. We Christians kneel only before God or before the Most Blessed Sacrament because we know and believe that the one true God is present in it, the God who created the world and so loved it that he gave his Only Begotten Son (cf. Jn 3: 16). **We prostrate ourselves before a God who first bent over man like the Good Samaritan to assist him and restore his life, and who knelt before us to wash our dirty feet. Adoring the Body of Christ, means believing that there, in that piece of Bread, Christ is really there, and gives true sense to life, to the immense universe as to the smallest creature, to the whole of human history as to the most brief existence. Adoration is prayer that prolongs the celebration and Eucharistic communion and in which the soul continues to be nourished: it is nourished with love, truth, peace; it is nourished with hope, because the One before whom we prostrate ourselves does not judge us, does not crush us but liberates and transforms us.

Perhaps you might want to read the Pope’s book in its entirety. Mine is on perpetual loan to my pastor so I think I will have to buy a new one.

Regarding antiquarianism, yes, it is a heresy, but, I am not saying that you are a heretic. Your comments were somewhat troubling:

Kneeling in the Old Testament may be fine but the fact it existed in and of itself is not binding or normative on Christian liturgy. After all, there are plenty of Old Testament liturgical practices that are no longer continued by Christian or Jews (have you slaughtered a lamb recently?).

I** have nothing against kneeling per se, just pointing out that it was not a normative posture for the early Christians, and that standing–as a posture of worship–can be every bit as reverential as kneeling**. In fact, many early Christians wrote against Jewish worship practices to distinguish Christians from Jews.

I simply noted that they had some tinges of antiquarianism. Please read what Pope Pius XII said in Mediator Dei:

1. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world.[52] They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man.

1. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

1. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.

So, ultimately what does all of this have to do with the OP’s original question? Actually, it has quite a lot to do with it. Often, we look at things as being actions that should be done, like kneeling, for example. However, it helps to look at why kneeling should be done and its deep theological significance.

 

[Seatuck]

Most at my parish kneel until all traces of the eucharist have been reposed or consumed and the priest is seated or stands in front of the presider’s chair. Every once in a while the priest doesn’t go back to the chair but remains behind the altar to give the final blessing. Causes a little confusion. But we overcome it.

 

[MrS]

Until 4 years ago, my parish was quite liberal to say the least… more a center of fellowship than worship.

The new pastor has made changes slowly, and often with a bit of objection from long time pew sitters

But we have “advanced” to a NO form not found in many Churches… using the high altar, 4-6 altar BOYS in cassock/surplice, use of the Introit, ad Orientum etc etc.

After communion, purification, etc, the priest returns to his seat… and kneels facing the altar, The altar boys do likewise in their spots in the sanctuary. After a few minutes he stands and gives the final prayer and blessing.

Virtually all follow his lead and remain kneeling in silence. And that silence is deafening and awesome.

.

 

[allhers]

I understand what you are saying diggerdomer. I also understand with benedictgal is saying and agree with her too.

 

[EasterJoy]

I was not criticizing your bishop. My comments were made in general. I was indicating that I had a concern about why one would opt to stand, especially since kneeling is an ancient and Christological posture, as Pope Benedict indicated both in the Spirit of the Liturgy (pre-papal) and in the homily he delivered last year. I say that it is a shame because, as Pope Benedict indicated in the Spirit of the Liturgy:

The former Cardinal Ratzinger adds that:

Inasmuch as the GIRM does give him the option of making that determination and he is the Chief Liturgist for his Metropolitan See, I believe that it would be legitimate to ask what the reasoning behind his stance (or the stance of anyone promoting this, for that matter) is. Asking this question is not rebellion, nor is seeking clarification. In fact, such questions can (and often do) lead to positive dialogue. Please do not add words to what I have written in my post indicating that I supporting rebellion or encouraging others to do the same.

Perhaps if more priests and prelates would read what the Holy Father wrote (and continues to write) on the subject, that might be a good and sound thing to do. Oddly enough, when Cardinal Arinze made his remarks concerning the American adaptation, he found it quite laudable, saying that this is something that Rome definitely supports.

These forums are about anonymity that is why I do not mention the name of my bishop nor even the name of my parish.

Sorry this is delayed; I don’t log in very often.

Let us start with a clarification. Our archbishop has not abolished kneeling at Mass. He has no quarrel with the spiritual value of kneeling. He’s replaced kneeling with standing at one particular point in the Mass.

It is a bit of a stretch to imagine that our archbishop is not among those who are very familiar with what our Holy Fathers have written, particularly on the subject of liturgical posture. If I had to bet my life one way or another, I would wager every time that Archbishop Vlazny is more intimately familiar with the writings and speeches of the Holy Fathers than any of us are. Moreover, he gets a private audience with the Holy Father every 5 years, which is more than we can say. I think it is more than fair to say he is a professional, and we are amateurs. So let us dispense with the hope that those like him would read what has been written. We all must realize that he has.

In any event, I do not think the word “shame” indicates a desire for clarification. I don’t think it encourages any dialogue, let alone positive dialogue, since it indicates that the conclusion has already been reached that something is fundamentally wrong.

That is only my opinion, but I still think the word is out of place where you used it. I’m not trying to talk you out of your opinion, so much as to caution you that you might unintentionally put someone on the defensive by using such a strong word as “shame”, when your intent is to have an honest conversation.

 

[benedictgal]

Sorry this is delayed; I don’t log in very often.

Let us start with a clarification. Our archbishop has not abolished kneeling at Mass. He has no quarrel with the spiritual value of kneeling. He’s replaced kneeling with standing at one particular point in the Mass.

It is a bit of a stretch to imagine that our archbishop is not among those who are very familiar with what our Holy Fathers have written, particularly on the subject of liturgical posture. If I had to bet my life one way or another, I would wager every time that Archbishop Vlazny is more intimately familiar with the writings and speeches of the Holy Fathers than any of us are. Moreover, he gets a private audience with the Holy Father every 5 years, which is more than we can say. I think it is more than fair to say he is a professional, and we are amateurs. So let us dispense with the hope that those like him would read what has been written. We all must realize that he has.

In any event, I do not think the word “shame” indicates a desire for clarification. I don’t think it encourages any dialogue, let alone positive dialogue, since it indicates that the conclusion has already been reached that something is fundamentally wrong.

That is only my opinion, but I still think the word is out of place where you used it. I’m not trying to talk you out of your opinion, so much as to caution you that you might unintentionally put someone on the defensive by using such a strong word as “shame”, when your intent is to have an honest conversation.

Every bishop has an ad limina visit with the Holy Father. Yours has one just as often as mine.

However, if you examine my wording, you will note that I was not referring to any one bishop directly, or anyone else, for that matter. There are, unfortunately, some who will opt for standing for the reasons indicated in Pope Benedict’s Spirit of the Liturgy which I quoted in a previous post. I speak from personal and painful experience. Perhaps it is because those supporting the issue of standing may not understand that kneeling is profoundly Christological. Pope Benedict made a strong case for kneeling being Christological.

In fact, as I noted in my previous post, I got into a very heated debate with our newly ordained priest in my former Austin parish regarding the posture of kneeling. He and most of the committee favored standing. The fight was ugly. I wanted to be recorded as being against the idea. My friend and I did not speak for days. When we were assigned to serve together it was not a very pleasant experience, but, we were civil. I refused to stand and remained kneeling because I believed that the decision the committee reached was wrong. Thankfully, the bishop intervened and the practice died a quick and painless death. Incidentally, my friend and I spoke once more, although I did tell him not to ask me to change the wording in the text so as to use “inclusive language.” I reminded him that we are not to change any text at whim. He was upset, but, I told him that is the danger of having someone read the GIRM and the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy. Needless to say, he did not ask me to do that anymore.

As for the familiarity of the Holy Father’s works (both pre papal and papal), they are available everywhere for everyone to read. A friend of mine shared with me her copy of the Ratzinger Report many years ago. Much of what Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger said in that book resonated heavily with me. In fact, I recall one of the priests at my former parish in Austin making an unflattering remark about the former Cardinal with respect to his opinions on things, including that of liturgy. Needless to say, I am curious as to what his reaction was when the former prefect emerged as Pope Benedict XVI.

Again, this was not a pointed remark aimed at your Metropolitan. As I said, that remark comes from both a painful and personal experience.

 

[The_Fool]

When should one sit after Holy Communion? After the ciborium (?) is placed in the tabernacle and the door is closed? or when the celebrant sits? Or do you kneel until the celebrant says the Prayers after Mass?

For when to sit or stand, I learned a good cue is to watch the priest. If he sits, you sit, when he stands, you almost always stand, and when he kneels that means you better be kneeling or at least showing some sign of reverence too. Then again, occasionally, we have priests who can’t really kneel or stand too long because they’ve got really bad knees.

As for when to sit in specific, I think my parish was told to sit immediately after receiving communion, but practically nobody does. We generally sit when we hear the tide of people sitting down, the celebrant brings a prayer, or announcements begin. As for me, I’ll kneel after communion unless I am in a position representing the diocese in some way, then wait for a verbal interruption. It’s kind of painful in the cathedral in LA though, I had a seat with no kneelers and stone floor it was. All the same, we should give obedience where due to our shepherds and pray the Lord watch over them and keep them close. I wish there was a norm though, it’s rather odd when you’re traveling across country and waiting for someone to move.

 

[diggerdomer]

I’d suggest the proper behavior after Communion are the corporal and spiritual works of mercy.

I really don’t care if you’re sitting, standing, kneeling, prostrating, or whatever.