Property issues

  • Thread starter Thread starter LDNCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

LDNCatholic

Guest
I was just thinking about the Anglicans who will be converting to Catholicism, in particular the vicars who will become priests.

Will their church buildings become Catholic churches?? If not, will these new priests be moved around the country, leaving behind any parishioners who convert with them?
 
LDNCatholic said:
I was just thinking about the Anglicans who will be converting to Catholicism, in particular the vicars who will become priests.

Will their church buildings become Catholic churches?? If not, will these new priests be moved around the country, leaving behind any parishioners who convert with them?
Click to expand...
All of the old property that was stolen during the reformation should be returned.😃

I know, smarty pants!!!😉
 
I asked our Deacon this same question several weeks ago, but he didn’t have an answer. As Lapey notes, much property belonging to the Catholic church and even to private individuals in Great Britain was taken over or destroyed during the reformation. I’m thinking that the property belongs to the British government and probably won’t revert to the Catholic church or the individual owners. Imagine how difficult that would be to untangle. It’s a very interesting question. I hope someone knows more.
 
LDNCatholic said:
I was just thinking about the Anglicans who will be converting to Catholicism, in particular the vicars who will become priests.

Will their church buildings become Catholic churches?? If not, will these new priests be moved around the country, leaving behind any parishioners who convert with them?
Click to expand...
I’d imagine it depends on what is on the deed. When several Episcopal Parishes recently split off from TEC, the newly formed parishes tried to keep the property and lengthy court battles ensued and in some cases are still ongoing.

Best to walk away from the buildings and start fresh or find a local RC to worship in.
 
The Anglican churches are likely to be much older and far prettier though.
 
Kaninchen said:
The Anglican churches are likely to be much older and far prettier though.
Click to expand...
Agreed. That’s actually why I was wondering in the first place. Round the corner from me is a church from the 12th Century.

Would be nice to have that back :cool:
 
LDNCatholic said:
I was just thinking about the Anglicans who will be converting to Catholicism, in particular the vicars who will become priests.

Will their church buildings become Catholic churches?? If not, will these new priests be moved around the country, leaving behind any parishioners who convert with them?
Click to expand...
those issues will be resolved, and are even now being fought, through the governing bodies of the national and worldwide Anglican communions, and may end up in the courts, as some cases involving tradtional parishes whose pastors and bishops reject new developments such as ordination of women and of active homosexuals. So far most of those congregations who have withdrawn have lost cases to keep their property. It will probably vary by country as well. But unless the Catholic bishop of a diocese wants to go to court to argue that a church or other building, such as in England, was taken from the Catholic Church in the first place, a case he is unlikely to win, there is not much chance of property reverting to the Catholic Church.
 
Jesus went to the Temple from time to time, but he never seems to have shown an interest in owning one. Being an incarnation of God in human flesh who performed many miracles, I think if it was important to Him, He would have had one. My sense (and again this is my sense based on my own relationship with God) is that he was meaning to build a church in the hearts of people. A temple right there in your heart, not in this passing world. Now, if church authorities want to get in a grab match over property, I would say they have every right to do so, but I see little profit in it from a spiritual perspective. And besides, without regard to who owns them, you can drop in anytime - like Jesus did.
 
Two things: Jesus was God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity,not “an” incarnation of God, in the sense of one among many.

And he cared a good deal about the Temple, kicking out money changers who had turned His “Father’s house” into a den of thieves.

Hearts mattered to Him for sure. But so did the Temple.

I suspect there will be a modicum of pragmatism asserted. Churches or not, buildings need upkeep, and than needs money. Will, one wonders,the C of E have deep enough pockets to keep up buildings whose former users are now Catholic, and not contributing to the C of E any more?

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Gerry_Hunter said:
Two things: Jesus was God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity,not “an” incarnation of God, in the sense of one among many.

And he cared a good deal about the Temple, kicking out money changers who had turned His “Father’s house” into a den of thieves.

Hearts mattered to Him for sure. But so did the Temple.

I suspect there will be a modicum of pragmatism asserted. Churches or not, buildings need upkeep, and than needs money. Will, one wonders,the C of E have deep enough pockets to keep up buildings whose former users are now Catholic, and not contributing to the C of E any more?

Blessings,

Gerry
Click to expand...
Hi Gerry: “Father’s House.” - Don’t be silly. All of creation is God’s house - don’t you think? . Also, Jesus was indeed God in human flesh, but you can twist my terminology any way you like. My point is clear. I think you know what I meant and what He was. Sure you do. Point was that He could have built temples if He wanted to - He certainly had the ability, and didn’t seem interested. As to whether the C of E has deep pockets enough, I wouldn’t know. I would imagine that the Catholic Church’s pockets have gotten somewhat smaller of late, and that trend may continue in the face of certain issues that have been cropping up.
 
LDNCatholic said:
I was just thinking about the Anglicans who will be converting to Catholicism, in particular the vicars who will become priests.

Will their church buildings become Catholic churches?? If not, will these new priests be moved around the country, leaving behind any parishioners who convert with them?
Click to expand...
What happens to the parish buildings depends on the canons and constitutions of the Diocese or jurisdictions. Some groups say from the TAC, the parish owns the property.
Same with ACNA parishes and most Anglicans who are not in communion with the AB of C.

What will happen to the priest? They will stay with their people. The Holy Father is creating an Anglican Use with in the Latin Rite. If the parish can not bring the buildings, accomindations are being arranged with local Latin Rite Dioceses. Due to shortages, the Ordinariate has wording to allow Anglican Use Priests to be jointly used in the Latin Diocese. Once ordination is settled. Say in my area, I and an Anglican Priest of another jurisdiction have already approached the local diocese for a place to say Morning or Evening Prayer and eventually Mass once ordinations are reviewed and settled. This is to happen once the ordinariate is up and running. The Bishop approved and the priest we approached is very happy to help. The parish is one of the last to have an altar rail, essential for Anglican Mass.😃

Once I am ordained, I will have a small group of Anglican-Catholics and will minister to them and lead them in evangelism and learning more about the faith. I will also serve the local Latin Diocese. Some ideas have been floated with me serving as a Curate in parish hosting the Anglican Use, working on the local Base as the Navy has a serious shortage of Catholic Priest in the area. Chaplain of the Catholic Hospital and School. The parish has 58 parishes and missions with only 50 priests (including the Bishop and many very elderly priest who are “retired” but still serving).

Unless an Anglican Use Catholic priest wants to move, he won’t be moved from the area he is in at the present.

Hope this helps.

Peace

Mark+
 
MarkBrown said:
What happens to the parish buildings depends on the canons and constitutions of the Diocese or jurisdictions. Some groups say from the TAC, the parish owns the property.
Click to expand...
Yes, here in the US when a couple Episcopal diocese more or less seceded from The Episcopal Church, it started court battles over the properties. The rebels (at a practical level) controlled various churches, but the portion of the diocese which did not secede sued, claiming they had actual legal ownership

In western Pennsylvania, the court ruled against the rebel movement (despite it being led by the former Episcopal bishop.) In central California, as far as I know, the cases are still pending.
 
Dale_M said:
Yes, here in the US when a couple Episcopal diocese more or less seceded from The Episcopal Church, it started court battles over the properties. The rebels (at a practical level) controlled various churches, but the portion of the diocese which did not secede sued, claiming they had actual legal ownership

In western Pennsylvania, the court ruled against the rebel movement (despite it being led by the former Episcopal bishop.) In central California, as far as I know, the cases are still pending.
Click to expand...
Depends upon State law as to how church property is handled. Texas seems to side with those leaving. Also it is not those that remain that usually file suit. The office of the PB usually files suit. Or in the Case of the churches in VA and SC, where the local Bishop has reached an agreement to let the parishes buy, again, thier property and leave. The PB comes in and voids all deals. Texas actually ruled that the small remaining groups are not legally recognized as the Diocese. The people that remain with the TEC from these groups are usually very small in number and unable to financially support the various facilities if won in a court. In some cases it is being reported volunteers from border diocese come in to give the appearance of numbers. This seems to be happening in California with Bishop Schofields Diocese as reported on Anglican Blogs. Gurney maybe able to shed some light on this.

Once the property is won, the PB has a policy of selling the property to any organization other than an Anglican one. As in the case of Good Shepard in PA the National church won the court contest. The parish offered to pay for the building at market value. The Diocese sold it instead to a Muslim organization for less money. To read the details go to Standfirm. This happened to Matthew Kennedy and his parish. They now worship at a closed Catholic parish and he lives, for now, in that parish’s rectory with his family.

I do not believe you will see any property fights in the States. Most of the Anglicans I know about who are coming in to the Church as a parish own their property. Many, if not all,of the Anglican groups who left the TEC did so decades ago. My group left in 1873!.
The fights are with groups who have left within the last 5-10 years. The TEC changed its rules to keep property and endowments at a Diocesian or National level (prior to the “Dennis Canon” parishes were viewed as owning the property) as plate and pledges are decreasing rapidly. Endowments are the main way the TEC is able to continue to function. People are voting with their feet and wallets.

Those coming into the Ordinariate have walked away from property before and started anew. Some have buildings, some rent space from other Churches or rent buildings. We will not have to do so again. If we need space, the Church will provide. I know an Anglican Bishop who bring his Diocese into the Ordinariate. Those parishes who do not wish to come are being allowed to keep their property. No lawsuits. Much like Bishops Iker, Duncan and others have done to the few parishes who wished to remain in the TEC.

peace

Mark+
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top