Prophets: born without original sin?

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I was watching episodes of Mother Angelica Live Classincs on EWTN’s YouTube page recently, and in a special “Feast of the Immaculate Conception” episode, Mother Angelica mentions that Isaiah, Jeremiah, and other implied OT prophets were born without original sin, in the manner of St John the Baptist. This left me with many questions, as I have scarcely heard this before. Is this supported by Scripture? What would be the purpose of these events? And most importantly: Is this a teaching of the Church? I’m sure other questions will surface later in the thread but I’ll begin with these three. Have at it, you wise men and women of CAF! 🙂
 
Would need to hear the quote. For instance, I’ve heard a pious tradition that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb, but not at conception. Only Mary is taught in the Church to have been preserved from Original Sin altogether.
 
That’s new information to me.

It seems odd to me that certain prophets would be preserved from original sin. Mary being preserved makes sense in light of carrying Christ, but I’m not sure what the angle would be for one of the prophets to be preserved.

The immaculate conception itself isn’t something taught (at least explicitly) in scripture, so I’m not sure off the top of my head what passages you would use to support the idea of immaculate prophets. I suppose since the Holy Spirit descended on the prophets to provide revelation, perhaps God cleansed them of all sin upon prophesying, but I’m still not sure how that would be carried over to them being preserved upon their conception.
 
I’m unfamiliar with this as well. It might be a small “t” tradition.

The Church does teach in the document where she defined the Immaculate Conception that Mary’s preservation from original sin was a singular, as in unique, grace from almighty God. So if the prophets were cleansed of original sin, it would have to be in a different way than her. Possibly after they were conceived but before they were born.

But no, the Church doesn’t have a teaching in this area that I’m aware of.
 
TK421 said:
That’s new information to me.

It seems odd to me that certain prophets would be preserved from original sin. Mary being preserved makes sense in light of carrying Christ, but I’m not sure what the angle would be for one of the prophets to be preserved.

The immaculate conception itself isn’t something taught (at least explicitly) in scripture, so I’m not sure off the top of my head what passages you would use to support the idea of immaculate prophets. I suppose since the Holy Spirit descended on the prophets to provide revelation, perhaps God cleansed them of all sin upon prophesying, but I’m still not sure how that would be carried over to them being preserved upon their conception.
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This is all well and good, but I need to know if TK421 is at his post. Does he copy?
 
MarcoPolo said:
Would need to hear the quote. For instance, I’ve heard a pious tradition that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb, but not at conception. Only Mary is taught in the Church to have been preserved from Original Sin altogether.
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That’s not a pious tradition. Its a Church teaching.
 
JamesTheJust said:
I was watching episodes of Mother Angelica Live Classincs on EWTN’s YouTube page recently, and in a special “Feast of the Immaculate Conception” episode, Mother Angelica mentions that Isaiah, Jeremiah, and other implied OT prophets were born without original sin, in the manner of St John the Baptist. This left me with many questions, as I have scarcely heard this before. Is this supported by Scripture? What would be the purpose of these events? And most importantly: Is this a teaching of the Church? I’m sure other questions will surface later in the thread but I’ll begin with these three. Have at it, you wise men and women of CAF! 🙂
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Here’s a link

Mother Angelica states in addition to St. John the Baptist, Isaiah and Jeremiah were BORN without original sin. IOW, they were conceived in Original Sin but sanctified within the womb. But many in the Church also believe St. Joseph was born without original sin. I don’t believe there are any official church statements to this effect, but there are many saints and other writers who gave sermons or wrote books to this effect. The reasoning for these statements is that these prophets and St. Joseph lived their whole lives in a state of Holiness, right from their birth.
 
I think this demonstrates some of the ontological issues with the idea of Original Sin.
 
So the prophets and patriarchs, along with St John the Baptist and St Joseph, were conceived in sin, then sanctified in the womb? But they still were subject to concupiscence, correct?

I’m sorry about this flurry of questions, but this is a doctrine that really confuses me…
 
Jeremiah was sanctified in the womb according to Scripture:
Holy Scripture:
Jeremiah 1:[4] And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: [5] Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.
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I don’t know the support (if any) for Isaiah off the top of my head.

Regarding St. John the Baptist, here is what Scripture says:
Holy Scripture:
Luke 1: [15] For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’ s womb.
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Poep Leo XIII taught this in the encyclical Iucund Semper Expectatione:
Leo XIII:
Then St. John the Baptist, by a singular privilege, is sanctified in his mother’s womb and favored with special graces that he might prepare the way of the Lord; and this comes to pass by the greeting of Mary who had been inspired to visit her cousin.
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Also, Pope Innocent III required a certain profession of faith to be recited by repentant heretics in the letter Fitts exemplo. Here’s the relevant portion (Denzinger 421):
profession of faith prescribed by Pope Innocent III:
We believe that God is the one and same author of the Old and the New Testament, who existing in the Trinity, as it is said, created all things from nothing; and that John the Baptist, sent by Him, was holy and just, and in the womb of his mother was filled with the Holy Spirit.
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The Holy Spirit does not dwell within one unless he is in the state of grace.

Also, just to add, St. Thomas notes that the fact that some have been sanctified in the womb answers the objection that original sin is more powerful than the salvation of Christ, since Baptism cannot reach inside the womb.
St. Thomas:
Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.
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newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article11
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MorEphrem:
I think this demonstrates some of the ontological issues with the idea of Original Sin.
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Not quite sure what you mean, but the fact that The Lord declared to have sanctified Jeremiah in the womb must mean that he was not originally sanctified. It proves that original sin, as the Church has defined it, is a reality.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Do you have a conciliar or Catechism reference?
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When a person is filled with the Holy Spirit their sin is removed. John’s original sin was removed in the womb.

CCC 717 “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.” John was “filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb” by Christ himself, whom the Virgin Mary had just conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary’s visitation to Elizabeth thus became a visit from God to his people.
 
Thank you, Genesis 315! I was aware of and believed in the doctrine about St John the Baptist’s sinless birth, but I was unaware that Scripture also directly stated a similar thing happened to Jeremiah. So is it an orthodox and pious thing to believe that this also happened to the other OT prophets and patriarchs along with St Joseph? Also, any other quotes or works of saints that support this belief would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all for your awesome responses!
 
JamesTheJust said:
Thank you, Genesis 315! I was aware of and believed in the doctrine about St John the Baptist’s sinless birth, but I was unaware that Scripture also directly stated a similar thing happened to Jeremiah. So is it an orthodox and pious thing to believe that this also happened to the other OT prophets and patriarchs along with St Joseph?
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You’re welcome! I don’t think it’s wrong to believe that this may have also been done for St. Joseph and others, but it would be just a deduction or inference, rather than a belief in what God has revealed.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Would need to hear the quote. For instance, I’ve heard a pious tradition that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb, but not at conception. Only Mary is taught in the Church to have been preserved from Original Sin altogether.
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Adding Jesus, of course, this is my understanding too. It is reinforced by the Liturgy as well:

We celebrate many saints at their deaths.
We celebrate three saints at their births: John the Baptist (June 24), Mary (Sept 8) and Jesus (Dec 25).
We celebrate two saints at their conception: Jesus (Annunciation, March 25) and Mary (Immaculate Conception, Dec 8).

So Mary, like Jesus, was sinless from conception, while John was purified in Elizabeth’s womb at the Visitation when he responded to Jesus in Mary’s womb.
 
Genesis315 said:
Jeremiah was sanctified in the womb according to Scripture:

I don’t know the support (if any) for Isaiah off the top of my head.

Regarding St. John the Baptist, here is what Scripture says:

Poep Leo XIII taught this in the encyclical Iucund Semper Expectatione:

Also, Pope Innocent III required a certain profession of faith to be recited by repentant heretics in the letter Fitts exemplo. Here’s the relevant portion (Denzinger 421):

The Holy Spirit does not dwell within one unless he is in the state of grace.

Also, just to add, St. Thomas notes that the fact that some have been sanctified in the womb answers the objection that original sin is more powerful than the salvation of Christ, since Baptism cannot reach inside the womb.

newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article11

Not quite sure what you mean, but the fact that The Lord declared to have sanctified Jeremiah in the womb must mean that he was not originally sanctified. It proves that original sin, as the Church has defined it, is a reality.
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These are great references, as well as Thistle’s. Is there a quote that says these persons lived their post-birth lives without actual sin? I ask only because one can receive the Spirit, such as at baptism normatively, and yet commit sin after that point.
 
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