Prosperity vs. Poverty

[Bubba_Switzler]

H1: Prosperity is a blesssing from God. Poverty is a sign of God’s displeasure.

H2: Prosperity is the result of making good choices in life. Poverty is the result of making bad choices.

H3: Prosperity is the result of sinful behavior. The virtuous live lives of poverty.

H4: Prosperity is the result of luck. Poverty is simply bad luck.

Have I covered all the bases?

Which hypothesis (or combination of hypothoses) do you favor?

 

[JRKH]

Define prosperity and poverty. In what sense are you using the terms? Are we talking about financial, social, spiritual???

Peace
James

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Define prosperity and poverty. In what sense are you using the terms? Are we talking about financial, social, spiritual???

Good question.

As a general rule of thumb, I would define prosperity and poverty in worldly terms, i.e. what we can judge by ordinary observation.

Financial prosperity and poverty are the easiest to discuss. I would add “power” in some sense to this. A politically powerful person might have all that he wants without financial owership.

Beyond that we might consider well being, happiness, and satisfaction with life.

And I think that would necessarily include spiritual prosperity/poverty at least in the sense of satisfaction with one’s spiritual standing.

I would exclude from this any claims about salvation since that is well beyond our capacity to judge (except perhaps in the case of saints). It would make no sense, for example, to say that, per H3, prosperity in salvation comes from sin or poverty in salvation from being virtuous.

Now there are all sorts of obvious tradeoffs involved that are worth discussing.

 

[stinkcat_14]

H1: Prosperity is a blesssing from God. Poverty is a sign of God’s displeasure.

False, prosperity and poverty depend to a great extent on where you are born. Are people who are born in Westchester County, NY more favored by God than those born in Zimbabwe.

H2: Prosperity is the result of making good choices in life. Poverty is the result of making bad choices.

Answer of course, is that it depends. It can also be a function of bad choices made by others. Or just pure luck can be important as well, you can be born in a rich household and make bad choices all your life and never be poor. On the other hand, you can be born in a village in Ethiopia, make good choices all your life and still be poor.

H3: Prosperity is the result of sinful behavior. The virtuous live lives of poverty.

Once again, the answer is that it depends. There certainly can be a gain to cheating, and some people like drug dealers profit immensely from sinning. In that case, it would be more virtuous to be poor and working in a convenience store. But one can be prosperous and moral, or poor and immoral and vice versa.

H4: Prosperity is the result of luck. Poverty is simply bad luck.

It can be. I was lucky to be born in the US. That has helped me prosper. On the other hand, not all prosperity is due to luck. Bad luck can bring poverty as well, but not necessarily the only cause of poverty.

Have I covered all the bases?

Which hypothesis (or combination of hypothoses) do you favor?

I think they are all bad hypotheses. Because they do not cover the complexity of human behavior.

 

[JRKH]

Good question.

As a general rule of thumb, I would define prosperity and poverty in worldly terms, i.e. what we can judge by ordinary observation.

Financial prosperity and poverty are the easiest to discuss. I would add “power” in some sense to this. A politically powerful person might have all that he wants without financial owership.

Beyond that we might consider well being, happiness, and satisfaction with life.

And I think that would necessarily include spiritual prosperity/poverty at least in the sense of satisfaction with one’s spiritual standing.

I would exclude from this any claims about salvation since that is well beyond our capacity to judge (except perhaps in the case of saints). It would make no sense, for example, to say that, per H3, prosperity in salvation comes from sin or poverty in salvation from being virtuous.

Now there are all sorts of obvious tradeoffs involved that are worth discussing.

Thanks.

Since Jesus taught that God makes it rain on the just and the unjust - I don’t think that we can say that there is any correlation between prosperity or poverty and God’s favor or lack thereof. That speaks primarily to those visible and easily discussed elements that you mention above.

As for matters of happiness and satisfaction…There I would say that there are definite correlations and I would favor H2 as the most correct.
Prosperity is the result of making good choices in life. Poverty is the result of making bad choices.
Choose to love God and neighbor to the best of your ability and you will grow spiritually strong, have many friends, and a great treasure in heaven.
Choose not to love God and neighbor and the opposite is true.

Peace
James

 

[Christy_Beth]

Thanks.

Since Jesus taught that God makes it rain on the just and the unjust - I don’t think that we can say that there is any correlation between prosperity or poverty and God’s favor or lack thereof. That speaks primarily to those visible and easily discussed elements that you mention above.

As for matters of happiness and satisfaction…There I would say that there are definite correlations and I would favor H2 as the most correct.
Prosperity is the result of making good choices in life. Poverty is the result of making bad choices.
Choose to love God and neighbor to the best of your ability and you will grow spiritually strong, have many friends, and a great treasure in heaven.
Choose not to love God and neighbor and the opposite is true.

Peace
James

It’s more complicated than that. I mean, we might not end up with the many friends part. There are a lot of people who live in a world where what they do and say doesn’t matter. They aren’t outgoing, may be plain looking to the point of being overlooked and all that. Oh, and if we love God, that means reading the bible, daily prayers and going to Mass. We may pack our lives with treasures in heaven, and lack a lot of things here. And I’d better shut up before I confuse myself.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I’ll add some more comments later but for now, another hypothesis:

H5: Prosperity is the result of having ancestors who made good choices in life. Poverty is the result of having ancestors who made bad choices.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

H6: Prosperity is the result of certain innate abilities such as intelligence and good health. Poverty is the result of natural handicaps.

 

[sallybutler]

H7: Prosperity is the result of having a lot of money, poverty is the result of not having a lot of money.

Just saying

 

[signit]

I’ll add some more comments later but for now, another hypothesis:

H5: Prosperity is the result of having ancestors who made good choices in life. Poverty is the result of having ancestors who made bad choices.

I’d tend to go along with that.

My cousins whose father had a “good job” and was always willing and able to help them out financially were more likely to be prosperous than my poor cousins who grew up without a father.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I’d tend to go along with that.

My cousins whose father had a “good job” and was always willing and able to help them out financially were more likely to be prosperous than my poor cousins who grew up without a father.

I have a friend who makes in the neighborhood of $300k plus per year. However, his kids are too lazy to work, so while he may make good decisions, they are making bad decisions and so their offspring will probably not do so well.

 

[cheezey]

…
I think they are all bad hypotheses. Because they do not cover the complexity of human behavior.

I have a friend who makes in the neighborhood of $300k plus per year. However, his kids are too lazy to work, so while he may make good decisions, they are making bad decisions and so their offspring will probably not do so well.

I know someone who makes $350k a year from just one job. Makes bad decisions very often. Which hypothesis covers this?

 

[stinkcat_14]

I know someone who makes $350k a year from just one job. Makes bad decisions very often. Which hypothesis covers this?

H8: wealthy people are less likely to become poor due to bad decision than poor people.

 

[stinkcat_14]

H9: Prosperity is the result of being born into a family with a large capital stock, poverty is the result of being born into a family with little or no capital stock.

 

[signit]

I have a friend who makes in the neighborhood of $300k plus per year. However, his kids are too lazy to work, so while he may make good decisions, they are making bad decisions and so their offspring will probably not do so well.

Okay.

My uncle helped his kids out financially (paid for four years of college per child, let one of them “borrow” money for the down payment on a house, etc.) but he still taught them Catholic values. He set a high standard and expected them to hold up their end of the bargain.

 

[Selah_KY]

Equating prosperity or poverty to God’s favor is a human construct. I think men tend to do this because the real gifts from God - salvation, grace, mercy - are too difficult to fully comprehend with our human understanding.

H7: Prosperity is the result of having a lot of money, poverty is the result of not having a lot of money.

Just saying

This is true! At least for financial well-being. But then, there is also spiritual poverty and prosperity, and that has nothing to do with money.

H8: wealthy people are less likely to become poor due to bad decision than poor people.

This, too, touches on truth. Of course, making good decisions can also lead to poverty and making bad decision can lead to prosperity.

H9: Prosperity is the result of being born into a family with a large capital stock, poverty is the result of being born into a family with little or no capital stock.

Yes, this is huge, too. But a person in poverty with good family spiritual and emotional support has a better chance of prosperity than the person in poverty who is alone.

There are so many layers to this discussion, it’s impossible to shrink it down into a couple of trite phrases.

 

[stinkcat_14]

There are so many layers to this discussion, it’s impossible to shrink it down into a couple of trite phrases.

It seems that the OP has lost interest in this thread, perhaps because the issue of financial success and poverty are more complicated than it would appear at first glance.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

It seems that the OP has lost interest in this thread, perhaps because the issue of financial success and poverty are more complicated than it would appear at first glance.

As usual, you are mistaken.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I was reflecting on the discussion so far. I’ll make comment specifically on some of the posts later.

JRKH made a very good contribution to the thread early on by asking what was meant by prosperity. On definition is narrowly financial success. Another is general worldly success. I think both are valid and useful.

Financial success has the advantage of being easy to observe and measure. It’s not as simple as some seem to believe but it’s certainly eaiser to measure financial success than happiness or even good health.

Worldly success, which I think includes JRKH’s full list, is arguably a more important definition. But the problem measuring it makes it hard to draw solid conclusions and it’s so tempting to get caught up in the various tradeoffs involved.

One question to consider is this: is it possible to use finanical success as a proxy for worldly success for the purpose of considering these hypotheses? If, for example, we were to focus solely on financial success we might come to a conclusion about the hypotheses which is still valid when more general worldly success is considered.

Would anyone aruge that one of the hypotheses is true about worldly success and not financial success or vice versa?

 

[stinkcat_14]

As usual, you are mistaken.

How am I usually mistaken?