Prostestant's questions to me

[Kay_Cee]

when Jesus said on the cross Literally translated the word tetelestai means, “It is finished.”
every thing needed for salvation was completely completed,

Isn’t it strange that folks who insist everything be in the Bible somehow automatically know what Jesus meant by “it” in “It is finished” even though the Bible nowhere says He meant “everything needed for salvation was completely completed”?

Ask your friend to show you book, chapter, and verse that claims that’s the antecedent Jesus intended for the pronoun “it.”

I’d also ask him why, since “everything needed for salvation was completely completed,” Romans 4:25 says Jesus was “put to death and raised for our justification.” Sure sounds like the Resurrection has something to do with our justification. Sure sounds like not everything needed for salvation was completely completed by the Crucifixion.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I think we need to be clearer about the Church’s teaching which is not only in dogmas, but in infallible doctrine, and in non-infallible doctrine.

That Mary is Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix of all Graces may not be a dogma, but both of these are well-founded teachings of the Catholic Church. Some saints have explicitly used these terms, and Popes (particularly Pope St John Paul II) have clarified their meaning. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was right. These terms are not found in the language of the Scriptures and of the Fathers. But so was the word “purgatory” not found. Therefore, while the Church might not elevate these teachings to the level of dogma, it is important that all Catholics realize that these Marian beliefs are solidly founded in Scriptures - provided, of course, that Mary’s role is properly understood as not being equal, but subordinate, to Christ’s work. Just as there is danger in glorifying Mary excessively by use of these titles, there is an equal danger - if we drop the use of these titles altogether - of not giving Mary the recognition that she deserves in the special role that she played in God’s plan of salvation.

Frank J Sheed, that doyen of the Catholic Evidence Guild, in his great Theology And Sanity, Sheed & Ward 1947, expresses the doctrine beautifully:
“As Christ represents humanity in the Redemptive Act, she represents humanity in the co-redemptive act. His suffering was the essential thing, and hers valuable only by derivation. His was the Passion, hers the Com-Passion. He was the Redeemer but the Church loves to call her Co-Redemptrix.” (Theology And Sanity, p 235).

Pope Benedict XV reaffirmed Mary as Co-Redemptrix in his Apostolic Letter Inter soldalica:
“Therefore, one can say, she [that is, the Blessed Virgin] redeemed with Christ the human race.” [Pope Benedict XV, Apostolic Letter *Inter soldalica

, AAS 1918, 181].

The Church’s teaching is that the BVM was eternally united with Jesus in the decree for the Incarnation, and thus from eternity before time began and through all eternity (Lumen Gentium 59).

Church Teaching on Mary as Mediatrix of (All) Graces
Compiled by Fr. William G. Most
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm
Just as the pagan may be saved WITHOUT knowing Christ and His teaching or Church specifically, yet every Grace comes to the pagan through Christ’s Church, and through the BVM as Mother of the Church and Mother of Grace.

In the same way as every grace comes to men from Christ through Mary as Mother in the order of grace, so does every grace come to men through Mary as Mother of the Church, for outside of the Church there is no salvation.

And,
“Her status as Mediatrix of All graces exists in a double sense.
“First, she gave the world its Redeemer, the source of all graces, and in this sense she is the channel of all graces.
“Second, Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces because of her intercession for us in heaven. What this means is that no grace accrues to us without her intercession.”
Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius, 1988, p 278-279]

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 10-10-2002 (EWTN):
Already the Church regards her as Mediatrix of all grace; it would follow from this that if Mary is a channel of all grace, and since redemption is an act of grace, Mary cooperates completely in the work of Redemption – not as the principal and source, but as channel and partner.
tinyurl.com/m4eu965

It is not and should not be a dogma.

 

[Della]

It is not and should not be a dogma.

The Church has looked at this and determined, for now at least, that the wording is confusing, could be easily misinterpreted by Catholics as well as Protestants and others, and that it simply isn’t necessary. Saying that Mary fully cooperated with God’s plan for her life and our salvation is a mouthful, but it doesn’t lead to the kind of misunderstandings a title of “Co-redeemer” would.

 

[Abu]

**Answer by Fr. John Echert on 04-11-2005 (EWTN): **
“From the beginning of her existence and into eternally, Mary participates in the work of the Redemption of humanity. From the moment of her own conception she was preserved from original sin so that she would be a suitable mother to provide the humanity of the Incarnate Word, a model of perfection for all Christians thereafter, and the New Eve who would reverse the curse brought upon humanity by the sin of the first Eve and Adam. From womb to tomb she remained by her Son and beneath the Cross our Lord entrusted to her the entire Church, to be the spiritual Mother of all Christians. This is symbolized by the exchange of Mary and the Beloved Disciple as mother and son, as recorded in the Gospel of St. John. Mary continues as our spiritual Mother most especially through her work as our principal intercessor with her Son, when we turn to her in prayer. In fact, so closely is she linked with her Son in the work of Redemption that she deserves the title Co-Redemptrix, which signifies that she shares in the work of Redemption. Christ is the Source of all grace which He receives from His Father but Mary is the channel of grace by which we experience the effects of the grace of the Cross. Were we to say that there can be no mediators other than Christ we would have to eliminate the agency of all saints and angels, which have a lesser role but nevertheless can participate in the work of Redemption.”
tinyurl.com/nvtc3tr

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 05-13-2005 (EWTN):
No grace comes to man except from the Father, through Christ the Mediator, and Mary the Mediatrix of grace.

ZENIT, October 31 , 2002
Pope Benedict invokes Mary as ‘Mediatrix of all graces’
CWN - February 13, 2013
In his Latin-language letter naming Archbishop Zygmunt Zimowski, president of the Pontifical Council for Health Pastoral Care, as his special envoy to the solemn celebration of the World Day of the Sick at the Shrine of Our Lady of Altötting (Germany), Pope Benedict entrusted the prelate’s mission “to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary Immaculate, Mediatrix of all graces” intercessioni Beatae Virginis Mariae Immaculatae, Mediatricis omnium gratiarum].

Although the Second Vatican Council and numerous popes have invoked the Blessed Virgin as “Mediatrix,” the papal use of the title “Mediatrix of all graces” is far rarer. The phrase occurs most authoritatively in Caritate Christi Compulsi, Pope Pius XI’s 1932 encyclical on the Sacred Heart, and has appeared on a handful of other occasions in documents issued by Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, Venerable Pius XII, and Saint John XXIII.

In documents issued in 1979, 1980, and 1987, Saint John Paul II raised churches dedicated under this title to cathedral or basilica status and referred to the Blessed Virgin in one of the documents (the 1987 apostolic constitution Frequentissimae) as the “most chaste Mediatrix of all graces.”

The late Father William Most has shown that Pope Leo XIII and subsequent popes have also used similar terminology to describe the Blessed Virgin’s maternal mediation.
See: catholicculture.org/news/…?storyid=17049

Thus it lacks reality to dismiss these papal doctrinal affirmations.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

**Answer by Fr. John Echert on 04-11-2005 (EWTN): **
“From the beginning of her existence and into eternally, Mary participates in the work of the Redemption of humanity. From the moment of her own conception she was preserved from original sin so that she would be a suitable mother to provide the humanity of the Incarnate Word, a model of perfection for all Christians thereafter, and the New Eve who would reverse the curse brought upon humanity by the sin of the first Eve and Adam. From womb to tomb she remained by her Son and beneath the Cross our Lord entrusted to her the entire Church, to be the spiritual Mother of all Christians. This is symbolized by the exchange of Mary and the Beloved Disciple as mother and son, as recorded in the Gospel of St. John. Mary continues as our spiritual Mother most especially through her work as our principal intercessor with her Son, when we turn to her in prayer. In fact, so closely is she linked with her Son in the work of Redemption that she deserves the title Co-Redemptrix, which signifies that she shares in the work of Redemption. Christ is the Source of all grace which He receives from His Father but Mary is the channel of grace by which we experience the effects of the grace of the Cross. Were we to say that there can be no mediators other than Christ we would have to eliminate the agency of all saints and angels, which have a lesser role but nevertheless can participate in the work of Redemption.”
tinyurl.com/nvtc3tr

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 05-13-2005 (EWTN):
No grace comes to man except from the Father, through Christ the Mediator, and Mary the Mediatrix of grace.

ZENIT, October 31 , 2002
Pope Benedict invokes Mary as ‘Mediatrix of all graces’
CWN - February 13, 2013
In his Latin-language letter naming Archbishop Zygmunt Zimowski, president of the Pontifical Council for Health Pastoral Care, as his special envoy to the solemn celebration of the World Day of the Sick at the Shrine of Our Lady of Altötting (Germany), Pope Benedict entrusted the prelate’s mission “to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary Immaculate, Mediatrix of all graces” intercessioni Beatae Virginis Mariae Immaculatae, Mediatricis omnium gratiarum].

Although the Second Vatican Council and numerous popes have invoked the Blessed Virgin as “Mediatrix,” the papal use of the title “Mediatrix of all graces” is far rarer. The phrase occurs most authoritatively in Caritate Christi Compulsi, Pope Pius XI’s 1932 encyclical on the Sacred Heart, and has appeared on a handful of other occasions in documents issued by Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, Venerable Pius XII, and Saint John XXIII.

In documents issued in 1979, 1980, and 1987, Saint John Paul II raised churches dedicated under this title to cathedral or basilica status and referred to the Blessed Virgin in one of the documents (the 1987 apostolic constitution Frequentissimae) as the “most chaste Mediatrix of all graces.”

The late Father William Most has shown that Pope Leo XIII and subsequent popes have also used similar terminology to describe the Blessed Virgin’s maternal mediation.
See: catholicculture.org/news/…?storyid=17049

Thus it lacks reality to dismiss these papal doctrinal affirmations.

Were they declaring with papal infallibility? And give me a straight answer without quotes.

Jesus is our Redeemer!

 

[AmosTown]

Any short answers to these questions?

**YES !!
**

Sword Brethren;13656350]"please tell me where Marian dogma comes from, it is not from the bible.

Yes Marian dogma comes directly from the Pure and Holy Mouth of the Glorious Savior Jesus Christ Himself . In fact Jesus commanded John to behold his mother.

*When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. * – John 19:26-27

By definition behold means:
be·hold (bĭ-hōld′) – To see, look upon, or gaze at

and by definition gaze means:

gaze (gāz) - To look steadily, intently, and with fixed attention.To see, look upon, or gaze at

So we Catholics take the direct command of Jesus Christ given to St John the apostle and passed down in the Holy Bible and by Apostolic succession to do exactly as Jesus told John to do … to look steadily intently and with fixed attention and the ever Glorious and Blessed Virgin Mary.

when Jesus said on the cross Literally translated the word tetelestai means, “It is finished.” every thing needed for salvation was completely completed,

Correct. Jesus said I am the Way the Truth and the Life. The word ‘the way’ in the greek ὁδός • ‎(hodós) f ‎(genitive ὁδοῦ); second declension

road, path, way
journey, trip, expedition
and has is from the Proto-Indo-European *sodos, from *sed- ‎(“to go”).

So everything He told us to do is the Way, the road, the journey, to go, that is we go by the Way of His Divine Life and His direct orders and and instructions.

so why or where does the priest get his power to call Jesus DWON from heaven and place him BACK on the cross? "

And His Holy Way is His Life given for us in the breaking of the bread and commanding us to do as He did, to make the offering of bread and wine , His Body and Blood to the father with His same self sacrificial vow (Covenant), i.e., Do this in remembrance of me!

“catholic church teaches that Marry is a CO-redeemer that she was born with no sin, this is #1 non biblical.”

The Monophysites affirmed that the human nature had ceased to exist as such in Christ when the divine person of God’s Son assumed it. Faced with this heresy, the fourth ecumenical council, at Chalcedon in 451, confessed:

"Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; “like us in all things but sin”. He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God." – Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.): cf. Heb 4:15.

So your question should ask "How is she not co redemptrix? " if Jesus got His humanity from the virgin Mary.

 

[Goya]

"please tell me where Marian dogma comes from, it is not from the bible.
when Jesus said on the cross Literally translated the word tetelestai means, “It is finished.”
every thing needed for salvation was completely completed, so why or where does the priest get his power to call Jesus DWON from heaven and place him BACK on the cross? "

“catholic church teaches that Marry is a CO-redeemer that she was born with no sin,
this is #1 non biblical.”

Any short answers to these questions?

Perhaps a bit late, but I would add a couple of thoughts to what has been posted:

1. The Bible is true, and the Word of God, certainly–but it does not, nor does it even pretend to, encompass of the entirety of the Faith. No where in the Bible itself, will you find any such pretense. That premise itself, is a Protestant fabrication–i.e.–a man made Tradition (the very same charge which Protestants so often levy against Catholicism–ironically, enough).
2. While the Sacred Tradition of Marian devotion does not appear patently in the Bible–certainly not in terms of volume or percentage of mentions of Mary–it was developed through prayer–in sincerity, humility, and charity.

I could elaborate at length on this point, but I will summarize it succinctly here, simply by saying that Devotion to Mary has, does, and always will, draw one closer to Christ (hence the age old adage "To Christ (or Jesus), through Mary).

But don’t take my word for it; I’m just an anonymous poster on a message board. Instead, see for yourself, “the proof in the pudding”–the multitude of great Saints who were renowned for their sincere Marian devotion. Here is short list of some of the more famous/familiar Saints, known for their Marian Devotion (most familiar names, bolded):

–St. Joseph (her earthly spouse)
–St. John the beloved Apostle (aka the Evangelist), to whom she was entrusted)
–St. Polycarp, (protege of St. John the Apostle)
–St. Ireneaus
–St. Cyril of Jerusalem
–St. Jerome (transcribed the Bible into Latin (the Vulgate) b/t 382-405 AD)
–St. Ambrose
–St. Augustine of Hippo (father of Western Christianity)
–St. Thomas Aquinas (“the Angelic Doctor”, Doctor of the Church)
–St. Dominic (credited with the modern Rosary)
–St. Francis of Assisi
–St. Basil
–St. Teresa of Avila (i.e. “Big Teresa” (vs. “lil’ Therese”), Doctor of the Church)
–St. John of the Cross (Doctor of the Church (author of “The Dark Night”))
–St. Thomas Moore
–St. Therese of Lisseux (“the Little Flower”/(“Little Therese”) Doctor of the Church)
–Saint Louis Marie de Montfort
–St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (Doctor of the Church)
–[St.] Sister Faustina (Divine Mercy)
–Saint Maximilian Kolbe
–St. Josemaria Escriva (founder of Opus Dei)
–Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (Doctor of the Church)
–St. John Vianney
–St. Francis de Sales
–St. Ildephonsus, Bishop
–St. John Damascene
–St. Germanus of Constantinople, Patriarch of Constantinople
–Pope Saint Gregory VII
–St. Anselm, Archbishop and Doctor of the Church
–St. Bonaventure, Cardinal-Bishop and Doctor of the Church
–St. Cajetan, Founder of the Theatines
–St. Francis Borgia
–St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal-Bishop and Doctor of the Church
–St. John Eudes
–Blessed William Joseph Chaminade
–Pope Pius XII, 1876-1958 AD
–Saint Hilary of Poitiers - Bishop, Father, and Doctor of the Church
–Saint Anthony of Padua, Doctor of the Church
–Saint Gregory Nazianzen, Father and Doctor of the Church
–Saint John Damascene, Father and Doctor of the Church
–Blessed Cardinal John Henry Newman
–St. Clare ('Poor Clares)
–St. Rose of Lima
–St. Joan of Arc
--St. Elizabeth Ann Seton
–St. Bernadette of Lourdes (as in visionary/“Our Lady of Lourdes”)
–[St.] Padre Pio
–Pope Saint Pius X
–Pope Paul VI
–Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta (the 3rd of the Carmelite Theresan Triumvirate).
–Pope John Paul II, the Great (i.e.–Saint…)
–Pope Benedict XVI
–Pope Francis,

If you go through that list, I would venture that you would be hard pressed to make the case that Marian Devotion had any kind of adversarial effect at all, on their Christianity, their Faith, and their love for, and devotion to, Christ–while the opposite case, would be easy to make–if it even had to be made, as the list itself, appears to be self-evident.

1. In re. “It is finished”–interesting conclusion to draw from that (I’ve had this discussion with several protestant friends in the past)–but a few, relatively noteworthy events occurred after Christ uttered those words, to wit:

THE RESURRECTION;

THE ASCENSION;

THE PENTECOST (among others).

Hence it would appear that when Christ said “it is finished”…he wasn’t talking about everything. More likely, he was referring to his suffering, and/or his earthly mission, the Passover sacrifice, the fulfillment of the prophesied suffering…but clearly not everything. I’s just a canned, transparently agenda driven Protestant apologetic that was reversed engineered to support Protestant belief, several (15) centuries, ex post facto. (IOW: you won’t find anything by the Early Church Fathers interpreting those words, as the Protestants do).

…and it speaks not a syllable, to Marian devotion.

FWIW.