Protestant Bible

[awatkins69]

Okay, the debate goes on…endlessly. There are many confrontations between Jesus and the scribes and Pharisees. Several of which were concerning the LAWS of marriage and divorce. It is easy to miss the point related to the real messages that Jesus was trying to convey during the exchanges we read about between himself and the scribes and Pharisees. We, of course, know that Jesus was a Jew. In my opinion, Jesus was trying to tell his bretheren to lighten up. There is a 50% divorce rate in this country. Many of these are good people - probably more qualified to be saved than those of us writing in this thread. One thing I’m pretty sure of: passing judgement on a neighbor who may be re married is not the proper Christian attitude and not what Jesus taught.

“They said unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultry, in the very act.” St. John 8,vs 4. “When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.” St. John 8, vs 10, 11. If remarring after a divorce is adultry, there are a lot of us poor sinners in big trouble.

My friend, God will forgive any sin, because Jesus has died for us. It is true. However, that does not mean we can keep on sinning. We must resolve to stop, because we want to please God and not ourselves. And yes, we all have this problem of wanting to please ourselves. I’m the worst. But we still must try our best, and recommitting adultery forever is not our best. With love in Christ.

 

[janw]

I agree with the CC on the issue of divorce. But I was raised Baptist, left the church for years. Married twice while very young. Had no real idea of how God felt about this until I tried to return to the church in my 30s. By this time I was on my 3rd marriage with children. I am working on annulment of first 2 marriages as I truly believe God lead me to the CC.

Billy Graham stated once on the subject " you can’t unscramble eggs". In the Bible it says “to stay in the situation you are in when you come to know Christ” Even though I went through some awful situations and alone for years I would not divorce #3 because I had learned what God had to say about it. So I do not think He would want me to leave.

I am going for the annulments. I just wish it all worked alot faster. What about all these folks that come to God later in life with such situations. I do not believe God wants families torn apart especially when they have decided to live for God. What would the children think, turning to God destroyed our family. I love God and want to be catholic but its very hard waiting so long to become a part of the church. Also the sponsor thing is hard for not so outgoing folks. We have tried to take part in things at church but no one has been that friendly so I do not know what we will do about sponsors as all friends and relatives are protestant.

Sometimes I feel I should just return to protestant church as God knows my heart but I just can’t as I have come to believe as a catholic. I know following God is the most important thing and if it hard well its just hard. My husband is to proud to not pay for annulment. But we really have no money these past couple of years as I lost my business and he was laid off for a while. He is a very new christian and has along way to go to understand.

I guess my old protestant upbringing is showing as sometimes I just feel it shouldn’t be so hard to follow God. It seemed very simple in the Bible in the story of Jesus talking to the woman at the well who had 5 husbands.

Just my thoughts. All prayers to help us stay on the course are surely appreciated.

 

[inkaneer]

I agree with the CC on the issue of divorce. But I was raised Baptist, left the church for years. Married twice while very young. Had no real idea of how God felt about this until I tried to return to the church in my 30s. By this time I was on my 3rd marriage with children. I am working on annulment of first 2 marriages as I truly believe God lead me to the CC.

Billy Graham stated once on the subject " you can’t unscramble eggs". In the Bible it says “to stay in the situation you are in when you come to know Christ” Even though I went through some awful situations and alone for years I would not divorce #3 because I had learned what God had to say about it. So I do not think He would want me to leave.

I am going for the annulments. I just wish it all worked alot faster. What about all these folks that come to God later in life with such situations. I do not believe God wants families torn apart especially when they have decided to live for God. What would the children think, turning to God destroyed our family. I love God and want to be catholic but its very hard waiting so long to become a part of the church. Also the sponsor thing is hard for not so outgoing folks. We have tried to take part in things at church but no one has been that friendly so I do not know what we will do about sponsors as all friends and relatives are protestant.

Sometimes I feel I should just return to protestant church as God knows my heart but I just can’t as I have come to believe as a catholic. I know following God is the most important thing and if it hard well its just hard. My husband is to proud to not pay for annulment. But we really have no money these past couple of years as I lost my business and he was laid off for a while. He is a very new christian and has along way to go to understand.

I guess my old protestant upbringing is showing as sometimes I just feel it shouldn’t be so hard to follow God. It seemed very simple in the Bible in the story of Jesus talking to the woman at the well who had 5 husbands.

Just my thoughts. All prayers to help us stay on the course are surely appreciated.

I think I can safely say that all of us are praying for you. We all have to live with the effects of our decisions and sadly many people today are in the same position you found yourself. Somehow, and I don’t know why, I get the feeling that all will work out for you.

 

[guanophore]

I think some things are being missed in this (and I have mentioned them some time ago on a similar thread). First, marriage is a covenant between a man and woman.

I think this is a very accurate reflection of the difference between the Catholic concept of sacramental marriage, and the conception of those who have been separated from the Apostolic tradition for 500+ years. Yes, marriage is considered a covenant between one man, and one woman, but we God is also in the center of the sacramental marriage. This is what it means when He says “what God has joined”. It is not just a business convenant arrangement where the man and woman covenant with each other, but a divine one, in which God joins them together. for that reason, separating is also a way of divorcing God. this is why He hates divorce.

Second, adultery (fornication) is a breaking of that covenant. The guilty party bears the sin (in the OT, they would have been stoned to death, which would relieve the innocent spouse from the marriage vows; also, there was no sin offering for adultery). (Let’s not forget that the offending spouse is also endangering the innocent by increasing the possibility of contracting some disease.)

The actual practice was that the woman bore the penalty, where the man most often went free.

Of course, we should forgive the offending spouse, and keep the covenant going forward. But what if the offending spouse continues in this behavior? What example do we have from Scripture?

We have the Lord teaching us to pray for those who persecute us. Jesus left NO room for divorce, and especially, remarriage. The Apostles taught that the couple could separate for prayer, with the goal of returning to the marital embrace. If one spouse is intractibly sinning, it is incumbent upon the other to fast and pray for him/her untiI they return to faith, and to the covenant.

It is also clear that, if one spouse continues in sin, then such a one also impairs the relatioship with God, as well as the marriage.

would point to Isaiah 50:1 (‘Thus says the Lord: "Where is your mother’s bill of divorce, with which I put her away? Or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities you were sold, and for your transgressions your mother was put away.’ RSV) and Jeremiah 3:8 (‘She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce; yet her false sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot.’ RSV). Notice that God divorced Israel because of spiritual adultery. We can see that this was a continuous occurance in the history of Israel (and Judah).

Of course this is figurative language, and any OT examples must be viewed through the lens of the NT. Even if a couple separates because of infidelity, that does NOT leave either spouse at liberty to remarry.

Having said all that, I would simply ask - is divorce OK on grounds of adultery, or did God sin when He divorced Israel?

Jesus was clear that Moses allowed adultery because of hardness of heart. God sent Israel away because of her hardness of heart. This is not an example of the pattern we are to live.

 

[janw]

I think I can safely say that all of us are praying for you. We all have to live with the effects of our decisions and sadly many people today are in the same position you found yourself. Somehow, and I don’t know why, I get the feeling that all will work out for you.

Thanks so much for prayers and hope your feelings are 100% correct.

 

[guanophore]

Welcome to CAF Wayne!

In my opinion, Jesus was trying to tell his bretheren to lighten up. There is a 50% divorce rate in this country. Many of these are good people - probably more qualified to be saved than those of us writing in this thread. One thing I’m pretty sure of: passing judgement on a neighbor who may be re married is not the proper Christian attitude and not what Jesus taught.

News flash, Wayne, none of us “qualifies to be saved”. Thinking oneself “good” does not qualify anyone to be saved.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

His mercy does not cover our intentional and persistent wilfulness to sin. It is contingent upon repentance.

“They said unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultry, in the very act.” St. John 8,vs 4. “When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.” St. John 8, vs 10, 11. If remarring after a divorce is adultry, there are a lot of us poor sinners in big trouble.

[SIGN]Remarrying after a divorce is a serious sin. [/SIGN]

There are a lot of poor sinners in serious trouble.

Jesus did instructed the woman to GO AND SIN NO MORE. the ONLY way to escape condmenation for such sins is to stop committing them.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with the CC on the issue of divorce. But I was raised Baptist, left the church for years. Married twice while very young. Had no real idea of how God felt about this until I tried to return to the church in my 30s. By this time I was on my 3rd marriage with children. I am working on annulment of first 2 marriages as I truly believe God lead me to the CC.

Billy Graham stated once on the subject " you can’t unscramble eggs". In the Bible it says “to stay in the situation you are in when you come to know Christ” Even though I went through some awful situations and alone for years I would not divorce #3 because I had learned what God had to say about it. So I do not think He would want me to leave.

I am going for the annulments. I just wish it all worked alot faster. What about all these folks that come to God later in life with such situations. I do not believe God wants families torn apart especially when they have decided to live for God. What would the children think, turning to God destroyed our family. I love God and want to be catholic but its very hard waiting so long to become a part of the church. Also the sponsor thing is hard for not so outgoing folks. We have tried to take part in things at church but no one has been that friendly so I do not know what we will do about sponsors as all friends and relatives are protestant.

Sometimes I feel I should just return to protestant church as God knows my heart but I just can’t as I have come to believe as a catholic. I know following God is the most important thing and if it hard well its just hard. My husband is to proud to not pay for annulment. But we really have no money these past couple of years as I lost my business and he was laid off for a while. He is a very new christian and has along way to go to understand.

I guess my old protestant upbringing is showing as sometimes I just feel it shouldn’t be so hard to follow God. It seemed very simple in the Bible in the story of Jesus talking to the woman at the well who had 5 husbands.

Just my thoughts. All prayers to help us stay on the course are surely appreciated.

May God richly bless your obedience, devotion, and sincerity.

 

[Cachonga]

guanophore:

I think this is a very accurate reflection of the difference between the Catholic concept of sacramental marriage, and the conception of those who have been separated from the Apostolic tradition for 500+ years. Yes, marriage is considered a covenant between one man, and one woman, but we God is also in the center of the sacramental marriage. This is what it means when He says “what God has joined”. It is not just a business convenant arrangement where the man and woman covenant with each other, but a divine one, in which God joins them together. for that reason, separating is also a way of divorcing God. this is why He hates divorce.

I absolutely agree that God hates divorce. I would ask what you think is the difference between a marriage performed in a church by a catholic priest as opposed to one performed by a JP at the local courthouse (or a protestant minister in a park). I don’t believe there’s a difference in God’s eyes; that they are equally valid and binding before Him. I realized this at an early age, and didn’t marry until I was 30 (we just celebrated our 24th anniversary a couple months ago).

The actual practice was that the woman bore the penalty, where the man most often went free.

I’m pretty sure the man would also be stoned if he was caught.

We have the Lord teaching us to pray for those who persecute us. Jesus left NO room for divorce, and especially, remarriage. The Apostles taught that the couple could separate for prayer, with the goal of returning to the marital embrace. If one spouse is intractibly sinning, it is incumbent upon the other to fast and pray for him/her untiI they return to faith, and to the covenant.

Obviously I disagree with the idea that Jesus left no room for divorce (remarriage is another question that i have not addressed). Paul, in his first letter to the Corinthinians (1 Cor 12-17) certainly seems to believe that it’s OK to let an unbelieving spouse depart (and there is clear evidence that remarriage is an option only in connection with your original spouse, unless, of course, they die).

It is also clear that, if one spouse continues in sin, then such a one also impairs the relatioship with God, as well as the marriage.

Which is exactly why it may become necessary to divorce the offending spouse!

Of course this is figurative language, and any OT examples must be viewed through the lens of the NT. Even if a couple separates because of infidelity, that does NOT leave either spouse at liberty to remarry.

Didn’t I view this “figurative language from the OT” with the “lens of the NT”? Didn’t Jesus Himself say, “… every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, …” ( RSV Mat 5:32, also see Mat 19:9)? Didn’t God divorce Israel because of her spiritual “unchastity”? Didn’t God Himself give a shining example of this very thing when He divorced Israel? Just out of curiosity, how do you interpret this particular “figurative language from the OT”?

Jesus was clear that Moses allowed adultery because of hardness of heart. God sent Israel away because of her hardness of heart. This is not an example of the pattern we are to live.

I’m sure you meant to say that Moses allowed divorce, not adultery. But remember, this was used to divorce for any reason, not just adultery. Plus, we see God gave Israel a bill of divorce because of her spiritual fornication. So again I ask - is divorce OK on grounds of adultery, or did God sin when He divorced Israel?

 

[Wayne_Andrew]

One of the largest and fastest growing religions in the world allows up to 5 wives. As an ex-Mormon, theologically, that religion (although not practiced “for time”) presumably demands that in order to achieve perfection a man must have many wives. My point is that there are so many opinions about how one should live and practice a given religion that it boggles the mind. This seems especially true when considering marriage. Bottom line: I thank God that I live in the United States of America and not some theocracy. The theocracies, historically, have created more evil, death and destruction than any other form social organization that I can think of. As a Christian, it is my humble opinion that we can do no better than obey the only two commandments that our Lord gave to his followers: to love our neighbors and to love God. Pronouncing judgement on someone because they have been divorced, for whatever reason, is hipocritical and wrong. I would ask those legalistic individuals writing to this thread: who is committing the greater sin? Is it the legalistic hipocrite who is assigning “adultry” to others, or the person who remarries after a divorce? Thank God for secularism! May God bless all who search for truth and who try to promote peace and tolerance.

 

[janw]

I have learned with the annulment process that marriages are annulled when they are found to be invalid. There are many reasons to consider them invalid. I am in complete agreement with all the reasons I’ve seen so far. It is much easier to annul a marriage between two unbaptisted people than people that have been baptisted. If a person did not know Christ or the Bible then they had no idea what they were doing and I do not believe God expects the same from them. Those marriages were never a sacramental marriage in the first place.

I had never heard of marriage being a sacrament and was so ignorant of God’s word as a teenager that I didn’t feel I was doing anything wrong. It didn’t help that there were many divorced couples in our church. ( baptist). After going back to church, I did learn that the baptist though it was wrong to divorce “sometimes”. I went to church until I was about 15. You would think they would be sure all teenagers understood what God had to say about all of this.

Maybe they didn’t want to push the teaching for fear of offending divorced couples. Very wrong on their part.

 

[tominator2]

You would think they would be sure all teenagers understood what God had to say about all of this.

Maybe they didn’t want to push the teaching for fear of offending divorced couples. Very wrong on their part.

Not to cast aspersions on our good brothers the Baptists, (and lumping non-denom Christians in with them) but according to George Barna, have the highest number of divorced individuals (as a way of gauging the number of divorces within the group) of any group in the US, including atheists and agnostics (who by the way have the lowest, tied with Catholics).

I agree - I think they might be doing their flock a disservice in that teaching.

May God bless you.

Tominator2

 

[inocente]

Not to cast aspersions on our good brothers the Baptists, (and lumping non-denom Christians in with them) but according to George Barna, have the highest number of divorced individuals (as a way of gauging the number of divorces within the group) of any group in the US, including atheists and agnostics (who by the way have the lowest, tied with Catholics).

The only item I could find on the Barna site is this, but it was just a telephone survey. The biggest variations are on high/low income and ethnicity, which may have biased the other statistics. The text also says that atheists/agnostics are less likely to marry, which gave them an artificially low divorce rate (phew! ).

For comparison, Spain with a huge majority of Catholics has the highest divorce rate in Europe, topping Protestant-majority countries, but it’s still much lower than the US rate (about two thirds as far as I can make out).

I know in some case divorce is unavoidable, but it seems marriage is becoming too easy everywhere, almost a fashion item - if last year’s model is out of style trade-up, and I guess in some cases just hope the kids will cope.

 

[Hope3]

The apostles were so shocked by Jesus’ teaching on divorce that they asked Him to clarify it:

Mark 10:10 “In the house His disciples also **asked Him again **about the same matter. 11 So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

The disciples then stated that it would be better to not marry at all than to have this “new” restriction about divorce (no remarriage allowed after divorce unless one of the divorced spouses dies):

Matthew 19:8-10 "He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
[9] And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.” [10] **The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.” **

But, Jesus tells them that “celibacy” is intended for those who are willing to do so (in order to best serve God and the Church). He acknowledges that not all men are able to serve God in this manner:

Matthew19:11-12 "But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. [12] For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”

Paul also recommends celibacy for the sake of the kingdom:

1 Corinthians 7:7-11 “For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10 **Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.” **

According to Jewish scholars, certain marriages were not lawful (as someone else stated on this thread) due to the “degree” of relationship between the two persons. The Gospel of Matthew was written to Hebrews (Jews) who understood what Jesus meant.

We who know the truth about remarriage after divorce will be judged according to what we know (we will undergo a stricter judgment that those persons who do not know the truth). Luke 12:47-48

Of course, if no one is willing to marry you or if you voluntarily choose to not marry, then you also have to be celibate your whole life.

 

[Izdaari]

The Protestant Bible? There isn’t one, there are many. I own at least or so different translations, including a couple of Catholic ones: the Douay-Rheims/Challoner and the NAB. And while the wording of those passages varies, they all say pretty much the same thing.

 

[janw]

I have heard many protestants say that 1 Corinthians 7:15 “If the unbelieving spouse wants to leave, let him (her) leave as you are no longer bound. God has called us to live in peace” proves you can remarry as you are no longer bound.

This is not what I have come to believe. I believe it means just to let them go without trying to force them to stay as God wants us to live in peace. If you read all the NT has to say you realize you could not remarry. I have tried to explain this to protestant family. Does anyone have a good way to explain.

 

[1holycatholic]

As a Christian, it is my humble opinion that we can do no better than obey the only two commandments that our Lord gave to his followers: to love our neighbors and to love God. Pronouncing judgement on someone because they have been divorced, for whatever reason, is hipocritical and wrong. I would ask those legalistic individuals writing to this thread: who is committing the greater sin? Is it the legalistic hipocrite who is assigning “adultry” to others, or the person who remarries after a divorce?

Adultery is not loving your neighbor as yourself, it is gravely sinful. It is not charity to confirm someone in their sin.

The person who divorces their spouse and then “marries” another is assigning adultery to themselves by their adulterous relationship.

The hypocrisy is on the part of the adulterer and the defenders of adultery.

 

[Hope3]

I have heard many protestants say that 1 Corinthians 7:15 “If the unbelieving spouse wants to leave, let him (her) leave as you are no longer bound. God has called us to live in peace” proves you can remarry as you are no longer bound.

This is not what I have come to believe. I believe it means just to let them go without trying to force them to stay as God wants us to live in peace. If you read all the NT has to say you realize you could not remarry. I have tried to explain this to protestant family. Does anyone have a good way to explain.

Nowhere does it state in the Bible that a divorced person can remarry while the former spouse is still alive if the marriage was a valid marriage in the first place. Many people assume that they can remarry after divorce and they cite Matthew 5:32 as their “proof,” but they are mistaken.

“Adultery” and “sexual immorality” and “marital unfaithfulness” are not good English translations (in various Bible translations) of the intent of the author for Matthew 5:32. Many people think this verse means that when one spouse is unfaithful (adulterous), then the “injured” (non-adulterous) person can remarry and that God therefore approves of the new marriage. However, the intent of the author was to convey that an invalid marriage may be set aside, but a valid marriage cannot. That is why the disciples stated that it would be better not to marry at all, (Matthew 19:8-10) than to not be able to get a divorce and remarry when you wanted to. Jesus (and Matthew) were speaking to Hebrews/Jews and so their audience knew exactly what was meant by this type of “unchastity” (unchastity is a much better English translation of the Greek word in this verse) and it certainly was not “adultery” (marital unfaithfulness) that Jesus and the disciples were discussing.

 

[Hope3]

Just returned from Bible Study at my church:

In about 538 B.C., the Jews returned to Jerusalem after their Babylonian exile. The Samaritans, whose “Father” was Jacob also, were already living there and when the Jews started to rebuild their temple, the Samaritans wanted to help them. According to legend, the Jews said that they would first have to put aside their pagan spouses because these marriages were “unchaste.” The Samaritans refused to put aside their pagan spouses and therefore they were not allowed to help rebuild the temple and so this is when the strong enmity between the Jews and the Samaritans began. The Samaritans then built their own temple on Mount Gerizim and offered animal sacrifices there. There are now only about 650 Samaritans left in the world. wordiq.com/definition/Samaritan

The April 28, 2010 Samaritan animal Paschal Sacrifice ritual may be viewed here:
gath.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/visit-to-samaritan-passover-sacrifice/