Protestant inquiry -- Praying to saints and Mary

[hazcompat]

Revelation, chapter 14

The Lamb’s Companions.

1Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of rushing water or a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 They were singing [what seemed to be] a new hymn before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn this hymn except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been ransomed from the earth. 4 These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins* and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

REVELATION
Chapter 11

16The twenty-four elders who sat on **their thrones **before God prostrated themselves and worshiped God.

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

Matthew 20:23 He replied, “My cup you will indeed drink, but to sit at my right and at my left , this] is not mine to give but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

It seems evident that an “order of Grace” exists in the Kingdom?

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

Psalms 45:14 All glorious is the king’s daughter as she enters,her raiment threaded with gold; 15 In embroidered apparel she is led to the king. The maids of her train are presented to the king. 16 They are led in with glad and joyous acclaim; they enter the palace of the king.

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

James 5:16Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. 17 Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. 18Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit.

Jesus does not need mediators, He commands it.

Peace

 

[JM3]

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9F.HTM

2675 Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first “magnifies” the Lord for the “great things” he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 The second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9H.HTM

2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,41 especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things."42 Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

2684 In the communion of saints, many and varied spiritualities have been developed throughout the history of the churches. the personal charism of some witnesses to God’s love for men has been handed on, like “the spirit” of Elijah to Elisha and John the Baptist, so that their followers may have a share in this spirit.43 A distinct spirituality can also arise at the point of convergence of liturgical and theological currents, bearing witness to the integration of the faith into a particular human environment and its history. the different schools of Christian spirituality share in the living tradition of prayer and are essential guides for the faithful. In their rich diversity they are refractions of the one pure light of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit is truly the dwelling of the saints and the saints are for the Spirit a place where he dwells as in his own home since they offer themselves as a dwelling place for God and are called his temple.44

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[Razanir]

That makes a lot more sense to me. I WAS reading the divine into the word worship, which is the context I am most familiar with in my Protestant church. What you said really helps and I appreciate it.

Of course, Catholics still typically imply the divine in the word worship. You just never hear it used with the old connotations any more. That’s why we say we venerate the saints. But yeah, the confusion was really just that you were reading the divine into “pray” when we weren’t. An equivalent statement to “we pray to the saints” would be “we plead to them [for their intercession]”

 

[pablope]

Hi Elizium,

I think I understand what some posters say when they say they pray to Mary and the saints to ask for prayer on their behalf since they are in heaven near God. After all, they are part of the cloud of witnesses that the Bible speaks about. I get that.

However, I’m concerned if you are saying that you worship Mary and the saints in the same way you worship God in Christ. To me, it sounds dangerous if you are giving Christ, the saints, and Mary equal status in the kingdom of God. Forgive me if I have misunderstood or mischaracterized anything. I am finding Catholicism, although fascinating, to be a complicated faith to understand at times for this Protestant lad.

This article explores the roots of the belief in the intercession of saints…it traces the Jewish roots:

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

 

[Aramis]

Hi Elizium,
When you worship Mary and the saints, how is that experience different from worshipping God through Christ in your experience? Do you worship them all interchangably as equals? I understand ‘honoring someone’ is different than worshipping them, but you used the word ‘worship’, which I thought was reserved for God alone (through Christ).

I think I understand what some posters say when they say they pray to Mary and the saints to ask for prayer on their behalf since they are in heaven near God. After all, they are part of the cloud of witnesses that the Bible speaks about. I get that.

However, I’m concerned if you are saying that you worship Mary and the saints in the same way you worship God in Christ. To me, it sounds dangerous if you are giving Christ, the saints, and Mary equal status in the kingdom of God. Forgive me if I have misunderstood or mischaracterized anything. I am finding Catholicism, although fascinating, to be a complicated faith to understand at times for this Protestant lad.

The chatechism is explicit that we worship only God in the Trinity.

We pray to the saints, but remember: “Pray” means “ask”.

Most people forget that root meaning. I pray you sir, not to accuse us of worshipping the saints, for those who do worship other than God are idolaters.

On the 1st commandment - No other God:
www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P7C.HTM Part 3 §1 Ch 1 Art 1 Subart I
www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P7D.HTM Part 3 §1 Ch 1 Art 1 Subart II
www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P7E.HTM Part 3 §1 Ch 1 Art 1 Subart III

On prayer and intercession:
www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P91.HTM Part 4 §1 Ch 1 Art 1

But it is aided by reading www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P8Z.HTM Part 4 §1 first

 

[ckutac]

Hi Sirach2. I definitely understand and follow the concept of praying for the living and asking for the prayers of my living Christian brothers and sisters. It’s the part of praying to those who died that is a little foreign (and scary) to me. I was taught growing up that Mary and the saints were special people in the faith, but once they died any direct communication to them is no longer possible or needed since Christ is our mediator between and us and God. I’m still trying to sort all of this out. However, some of the posts I’ve read on this thread are helping.

Tommy, those in heaven are still alive, according to the Bible - Matthew 22:32. God is God of the living, not of the dead.

Also, we see in Revelation 5:8 that the Saints in heaven can and do take the prayers of the faithful here on earth before God.

 

[Todd977]

Asking another living Christian or prayerfully asking the Virgin Mary, another canonized saint, or any other deceased Christian to intercede for us ought to be regarded as a request for their Christian intercession, not intercession made in lieu of Christ but intercession made through, with and in Christ.

Christian intercession, of the living or the dead, is not limited simply to prayer but includes the exercise of any God-given gifts as well, such as the gift of healing or the gift of miracles. And, there is no reason to think that a Christian who in life has the gift of healing or of miracles necessarily loses that gift once he dies. On the contrary, Sacred Scripture suggests that such gifts are retained after death. Consider the prophet Elisha. With his God-given gifts, in life the prophet Elisha worked many miracles and after he died he raised another dead man to life. See 2 Kings 13:20-21; Sirach 48:14.

When we ask other Christians, living or dead, to intercede for us and when Christians, living or dead, intercede for others, that tends to increase the mutual love of the members of the Body of Christ and tends to build up the Body of Christ.

 

[Goya]

Hello to all,
I’ve been a life long Protestant Christian who was taught to pray to God through Jesus Christ as our sole heavenly mediator. Catholics are also taught and encouraged to pray to the saints and to Mary to ask them to pray to God on our behalf, if I understand correctly.

Why is it necessary to add additional layers of "middle men" to the proccess and what additional benefits does it provide? I would also like to know if Catholicism finds it permissible to pray to deceased family members who died in the faith, or can a Catholic only pray to God, Jesus Christ, Mary and the saints? In other words, where do you draw the line? I am not a theologian nor do I wish to argue dogma. I just want to better understand the Catholic position from Catholic believers who pray to the saints and Mary because I perceive there may be more to it than I currently understand. Thank you for your time and consideration. I really like this forum and find it beneficial to me as I inquire more about Catholicism.

First, let me commend you on a well stated question, and more importantly, on your approach.

This same question has been asked probably a thousand times by protestants–but the phrasing of the question is usually laced with arrogance, contempt, and such, so that it comes off as an attack on the faith, rather than in inquiry–and therefore begets answers, appropriate to the tone. You’ve asked politely…seems like you’re getting answers…politely.

Secondly, I don’t really have much to add really–just a small ‘clarification’–and that’s concerning the idea of praying to Saints/Mary, vs. having them join us, and the idea of a ‘middle man’. The key to understand here, is that we recognize and know that all GRACE comes from God. He is alone, is THE single source of all Grace(s). Hence even when we pray to the Saints and/or Mary, we are not asking them to bless us with their grace(s), or some special 'grace" or power, that is theirs to distribute --we are asking them to join our petition, and lend us their ‘cred’ as it were, in seeking such grace from God above, the exclusive source of all Grace(s).

FWIW.

 

[Goya]

^^^One additional point–it is very much akin to the concept of ‘advocacy’–why Lawyers exist. Lawyers make their living from of knowing how to ask for things; how to phrase questions; how to present evidence; how to ‘build a case’ for the propriety of a legal remedy. Saints have established ‘cred’ within various particular areas–e.g.–St. Jude, wrt Cancer (hence St. Jude Children’s hospital).

Lawyers know the judge, and judge knows the lawyers. They have a rapport with one another; a comfort level; credibility; expertise; and resulting mutual respect and good will. But the Judge dispenses of the legal remedies–as God dispenses the graces.

Hence often times we invoke the saints, by humbly acknowledging that for all of our ‘piety’, and prayer-fulness or what have you…there are others who have come before us, and ‘made a name for themselves’, that commands respect—and therefore, by engaging their good will, we may be better served in articulating our case–measured against God’s Will (that is, that no matter what we pray for, it must be in accordance with, if not in furtherance of, God’s Holy Will).

All though one can certainly proceed pro se, and represent oneself–often, if not usually, engaging an attorney is beneficial to one’s cause. Likewise, we can certainly pray for ourselves, and our own causes–but engaging a Saint, or ‘the Saints’, sometimes helps our ‘cause’.

(…and the retainer fee for the saints is just right! or should I say, quite reasonable–as although there is no ‘charge’ for engaging the Saints, there usually is a ‘conscience tax’ where we feel inclined to honor the saint more fully, after ‘engaging them’, and to refer others to the Saint–thereby further buttressing their ‘cred’).

Continuing with the analogy, in the legal profession there is a saying:

The attorney who represents himself, has a fool for a client.

Now I wouldn’t go so far to say that "…the ‘saint’ who represents himself, has a fool for a cause’–but I would submit, that one is potentially failing to avail themselves of great potential and cred to buttress their petitions and causes, by neglecting the Saints in Heaven, as one approaches the Blessed Trinity, with their prayers.

…but ultimately, it is a matter of humility and respect.

Humility in that we acknowledge our own lowliness, and poverty—in terms of stature, in the Realm of Heaven; and

Respect, for the proven friends of Christ, who, during their respective lifetimes, and by their respective lives, established themselves as noteworthy and memorable, in their commitment to Christ (i.e.–their legacy).

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks to all who responded to my posts. You have been most helpful. I especially appreciate your explanations, Goya . Your analogies relating to a judge and lawyers as advocates makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the fact that I was on a jury not too long ago. The other 11 jurors chose me as foreman, a responsibility which I didn’t seek but I did the best job I could with the Lord’s help.

I also feel like God has allowed you to take a peek into my heart and see my true intentions and I appreciate it more than you know.

Your friend in Christ,
Tom

 

[Goya]

Thanks to all who responded to my posts. You have been most helpful. I especially appreciate your explanations, Goya . Your analogies relating to a judge and lawyers as advocates makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the fact that I was on a jury not too long ago. The other 11 jurors chose me as foreman, a responsibility which I didn’t seek but I did the best job I could with the Lord’s help.

I also feel like God has allowed you to take a peek into my heart and see my true intentions and I appreciate it more than you know.

Your friend in Christ,
Tom

Thank you–I’m duly flattered that you found my humble (name removed by moderator)ut helpful.

I enjoyed the thread–well done, sir.

In Christ,

Goya