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Mickey
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I think all members of this forum would appreciate it if you could restrain yourself from cursing when you post messages.:ehh:
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michaelp
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Kris, I serously doubt that this represents the Catholic concensus. This would be a terrible rewriting of history.
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PaulDupre
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Katholikos
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The Catholic Church didn’t want anyone to read the Bible. Sure. That’s why the Church copied it by hand – carefully, laboriously, painfully, by candlelight – for FIFTEEN CENTURIES until the printing press was invented. That way, Catholics couldn’t read it or hear it or know it. That’s why the Catholic Church has proclaimed whole chunks of the OT and NT Scriptures in her liturgy since she was born at Pentecost in 33 A.D.
. That’s why special spiritual blessings are given to Catholics who study the Bible. But don’t you dare learn what the Bible says, you Catholics!The earliest nearly complete Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in existence are copies from the fourth century. These copies were made by Catholic hands. Only the original writings of the Bible in the handwriting of the authors are the inspired Word of God – not the copies, and not the translations. And all we have are copies. How does a Protestant know that the copies are the same as the originals? They weren’t made by a Xerox copier, you know.
The skins of about 422 animals and years and years of hard labor were required to produce a single copy of the Bible. Few people could read. Illiteracy was about 90% in the first century and didn’t improve until after the printing press was invented in the fifteenth century. Fifty percent of the world’s population is still illiterate. Americans remained illiterate for the most part until the 18th and 19th centuries. My own grandfather couldn’t read or write. Even today, 20% of Americans are functionally illiterate. Try handing them a Bible and tell them to figure out what it means!There were 18 German translations before Luther’s. Fragments of English translations date from the 8th century.
The “Bible alone” doctrine is not in the Bible.
You’ve got a lot to learn about the history of Christianity and the history of the Bible, ja3712. But a man with a closed mind can’t be taught. I pray that your mind may be opened.
Your Protestant teachers haven’t told you the truth.
JMJ Jay
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ahimsaman72
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I’m not sure at all what you are speaking of, dear Katholikos. I don’t have a theory that doesn’t include the Baptist denomination. I fully admit that John Smyth in 1609 is the traceable founder of the Baptist faith. There certainly is a Baptist faith based on some core teachings, but with also varied opinions on other teachings. My Southern Baptist faith is the closest to any other Christian denomination in its understanding of truth. If I didn’t feel that way, I wouldn’t have belonged to it all these years
. Please help me understand where you are going with this.Both statements are true. However, I wouldn’t term it “private interpretation”. I call it “personal conscience” and “personal understanding”. Yes, it is relavitism. I don’t think one faith group has all the answers to life and the key that unlocks “absolute truth”. This would include Christianity.
It answered them for Mortimer. And that’s fine. It has not answered them for me. But then, I’m not a great philosopher either. I freely admit my understanding could be tainted and incomplete. The problem is that others may not feel that way. So, there is a “yours is wrong, mine is right” mentality which does nothing but foster breaking of dialogue between faith groups. I have never said I have all the answers. I admit my human incapability to know it all.
My dear friend michaelp would probably also back up what I am saying here. One has to recognize their own lack of complete knowledge and understanding. To not do so is to be blind - to be closed. Though he and I may not agree on everything, we both understand the concept of fallible human beings.
Peace…
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ahimsaman72
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Absolutely agree Mickey. One should leave if self-control is not possible. The majority of us can post without being so agressive and profane. You will be banned if you continue in this manner by the moderators.
Peace…
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Shibboleth
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There is a huge problem here in that I have a hard time following your posts. Although I believe that you have your intentions well formed in your mind you fail to write them effectively and consequently I am forced to assume some of what you are attempting to convey.
Of course when I assume it makes an a** out of ‘u’ and ‘me.’
So that being said, I am not following you on where you believe I have called the Holy Spirit a liar. At no time have I felt that the Holy Spirit lies or expressed that in my humble opinion.
The Holy Spirit speaks nothing but truth; however, we as sinful people disregard that truth from time to time due to pride, sloth, wrath, lust, etc. In these instances we believe, express, and propagate heterodox doctrines.
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Katholikos
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You have yet to answer my basic questions, GED. So I continue to ask. What is the Bible? Whose Bible? Which canon? Which collection of books is the “real” Word of God? Where in the Scriptures are we told that the Scriptures interpret themselves? Where in the Bible do we find a list of the Scriptures? The Bible is a collection of writings. Which writings are “Scripture” anyway? Where is the God-given “inspired” list of the books that belong in the Bible?
What is there about a personal letter written to a slave holder that makes it “the inspired Word of God” that is differnent from the Letter of Barnabas, Paul’s compantion, that isn’t “inspired”? Why is a personal letter to a guy named Gaius the “inspired Word of God”? Or Paul’s personal letters to Timothy? How do you know which writings are inspired and which are not? And how do you know? Could some of the writings that didn’t make it into the NT be “inspired”? How do you know, one way or the other?
Since three of Paul’s letters are missing, is your Bible incomplete? What do you suppose those letters say? Aren’t they “Scripture” too?
Since there are as many interpretations of Scripture as there are denominations (that includes yours!), which of the thousands of denominations has “God’s Spirit” (if any!) and which does not? How do you know? Since the Spirit obviously isn’t teaching everyone, how do you know He’s teaching you? Where is your evidence?
Peace to you and to all who post at Catholic Answers.
JMJ Jay
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SPOKENWORD
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Hi dear brother,thanks for pointing out the log in my eyes. Now I can see better now that it gone.No ill feelings for you spoke with a spirit of correction and I recognized it. Praise God!! God Bless Brother.Dear brother, my words were words of admonition and were for reflection. Hopefully, you saw them as such and will not think there are ill feelings. I have seen you around for a while here and admire your heart and zeal for your faith.
I only hope to encourage you to be more open and less critical so that your experience here will be beneficial to yourself and others. Trust me, self-examination is something that we all must do. I don’t like what I see within myself at times. Once one is aware and mindful of their behaviour and thoughts, one can do something about it.
I wish you only peace and blessings and happiness!
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Malachi4U
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Was that the log in your left eye or the right?
God Bless you #2,
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Beaver
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I agree with this statement that is why I do not believe in individual interpretation or lets say Protestant interpretation. We have Catholic theologian that like to do this too. This personal interpretation is usually ignored by Catholics but snatched up by Protestants with see the church is not infallible.
I would certainly agree that a degree in theology does not represent infallibility. These Catholic theologians are as Protestant as you are. The above statement fits them perfectly.
They do not represent for any of us, a source of infallibility. This is especially true of most of the theology degree received in the colleges and university in America. To see these theologians as infallible is ridiculous.
Yours in Christ
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SPOKENWORD
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Hi Malachi,Notice I said in my eyes,so they were in both.Was that the log in your left eye or the right?
God Bless you #2,
God Bless
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ahimsaman72
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The old saying that I remind myself of is that when I point my finger at someone else, 4 of the other fingers are pointed back at me!
Alas, we are still brothers and I am thankful you have such a humble and sweet spirit. May your days here be long and prosperous!!
Blessings and peace to you dear brother…
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Church_Militant
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have some sweet Tea…I wish Fiat and C.M. would not refer to me as #2 poster. It gives me an inferior complex.Kind of stinks to be honest with you.God Bless
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angel_crooks
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I too am concerned about this so called Holy Spirit intepretation!
In Australia and in particular in Sydney and Melbourne the Jesuits train the non catholics such as the Protestants in THeology! So the minority Christian denominations in Australia are being trained by Catholics!
It seems to me that the American non caths I’ve met all say very heatedly that they are being told by the Holy Spirit! If that was the case why are there something like, on my last count, 60 000 Christian denominations all claiming to have Christ as their head of Church?! That so baffles me and what is worse ppl believe those who create these denominations and follow these ppl! Surely a question of POWER and misuse should come into the equation here as to why there are so many Christian denominations? and as to why the so called inspired Men claim to have the truth of Christ?! To my knowledge no Christian denomination has ever ransacked the Vatican so how can these ppl even have the original books of the bible?!
But then again perhaps its more than this! Perhaps its a reflection on a godless society that has no morals, traditions and magic of itsown! and ppl who need something more in their lives are grasping straws to recreated what modern society has taken away, that mystery and that feeling of belonging and traditions that created a society and it’s people! Surely this is a sad sad way to live, godless and emptyness!
%between%
In Australia and in particular in Sydney and Melbourne the Jesuits train the non catholics such as the Protestants in THeology! So the minority Christian denominations in Australia are being trained by Catholics!
It seems to me that the American non caths I’ve met all say very heatedly that they are being told by the Holy Spirit! If that was the case why are there something like, on my last count, 60 000 Christian denominations all claiming to have Christ as their head of Church?! That so baffles me and what is worse ppl believe those who create these denominations and follow these ppl! Surely a question of POWER and misuse should come into the equation here as to why there are so many Christian denominations? and as to why the so called inspired Men claim to have the truth of Christ?! To my knowledge no Christian denomination has ever ransacked the Vatican so how can these ppl even have the original books of the bible?!
But then again perhaps its more than this! Perhaps its a reflection on a godless society that has no morals, traditions and magic of itsown! and ppl who need something more in their lives are grasping straws to recreated what modern society has taken away, that mystery and that feeling of belonging and traditions that created a society and it’s people! Surely this is a sad sad way to live, godless and emptyness!
%between%
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Exporter
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ja3712,
Wrote,“I think the 1500 years of church history before the reformation is quite shameful for the catholic church, not something to be boasted.”
The original question was,
MickeyThe Catholic church has a rich historical source of scriptural interpretation that dates back to Jesus and the apostles through apostolic succession.(ie:magisterium, church fathers). Where do the protestants get their interpretation of scriptures?
I ask ja3712, “If there had not been a Catholic Church who guarded the Scriptures for 1530 years, Whould There Have Been a Reformation?”
What did Jesus Christ mean by the words he spoke to Simon/Peter in Matthew16: 18 - 19? Did Jesus say He would be with the Church forever or did He say he would be with the men of the Church forever? I say ( and the Church teaches this) individual men can be wroung but the Church cannot be wrong. BTW, the Church has not given an interpretation (read Dogma) to everything - some things are Mysteries.
Wrote,“I think the 1500 years of church history before the reformation is quite shameful for the catholic church, not something to be boasted.”
The original question was,
MickeyThe Catholic church has a rich historical source of scriptural interpretation that dates back to Jesus and the apostles through apostolic succession.(ie:magisterium, church fathers). Where do the protestants get their interpretation of scriptures?
I ask ja3712, “If there had not been a Catholic Church who guarded the Scriptures for 1530 years, Whould There Have Been a Reformation?”
What did Jesus Christ mean by the words he spoke to Simon/Peter in Matthew16: 18 - 19? Did Jesus say He would be with the Church forever or did He say he would be with the men of the Church forever? I say ( and the Church teaches this) individual men can be wroung but the Church cannot be wrong. BTW, the Church has not given an interpretation (read Dogma) to everything - some things are Mysteries.
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Exporter
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To see what “Catholic Answers” says about interpretation go to:
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0101bt.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0101bt.asp
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Demetress
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From the word of God the only truth.
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