Protestant is debating me about Catholic church.. (Mark 12)

[Nigel7]

I could use your help on this.

She is a nice woman, an old friend, was raised Catholic, but now attends a non-denominational community church. We’ve discussed several topics and I’ve always pointed her to scripture which supports Catholic doctrine. Every time I prove a point though then she comes back with something else. Here’s the latest…
She’s been hung up lately about the robes which the priests of the Catholic church wear, and now she has sent me this message including this scripture which she believes points to hypocrisy on the part of the Catholic church. (Mark 12)

Her message…

My comment about the opulence of the church, also, comes from Mark. Mark 12:38-40: “As he taught, Jesus said, ’ Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for show make lengthly prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.” The ring on the Pope’s hand that others kiss? The expensive robes and opulence? If you remember, Jesus also said in several verses that if one wants to be first, he must be last and that those that are pushing to be first will be last in the kingdom. He did not come to be served, but to serve, and that is the role of any one wanting to serve Him.

I know that in this scripture Jesus is talking about the Jews, but any advice/scripture/support that you could share with me which could assist in refuting her on this matter and showing her that it is not wrong for the Catholic Church to adorn its priests in robes would be helpful.
I’ve got her other questions covered, but could use some help with this, other than just telling her about context and that Jesus is talking about the Jews in the scripture she quoted. What is the best way to refute protestants on this matter?

Thanks

 

[mcrow]

I would hardly call the robes the priests wear (some of which are not even owned buy the priests themselves) being “oppulent”. Considering that I see many protestant preachers driving cadillacs and lexus or BMWs and living in huge houses and there being many cases where they’ve been prosecuted for fraud, it seems pretty simple to me.

Point out to her that the passage she quotes shows the “teachers” using these materials for personal gain outside of the church where the robes and regalia in the Catholic church are used for worship purposes. There is no such thing as oppulence when it comes to sincerly worshiping God.

 

[Gorgias]

I think I might point her back to the Scripture she quoted and ask her what Jesus is complaining about. It isn’t “they wear flowing robes” – it’s that they walk around in them, in public places, trying to look impressive and get people to notice them. Catholic priests wear liturgical robes – but it’s only in the context of worship, and then these garments go away. They’re not meant to be worn around the town, which seems to be Jesus’ issue: the teachers were more concerned with their appearance and with the way that people reacted to them.

The ring? Ask your friend what shows more humility: getting a ring kissed, or getting your feet kissed? Then ask her whether Jesus complained when the woman kissed his feet.

 

[pablope]

I could use your help on this.

She is a nice woman, an old friend, was raised Catholic, but now attends a non-denominational community church. We’ve discussed several topics and I’ve always pointed her to scripture which supports Catholic doctrine. Every time I prove a point though then she comes back with something else. Here’s the latest…

She’s been hung up lately about the robes which the priests of the Catholic church wear, and now she has sent me this message including this scripture which she believes points to hypocrisy on the part of the Catholic church. (Mark 12)

Her message…

I know that in this scripture Jesus is talking about the Jews, but any advice/scripture/support that you could share with me which could assist in refuting her on this matter and showing her that it is not wrong for the Catholic Church to adorn its priests in robes would be helpful.
I’ve got her other questions covered, but could use some help with this, other than just telling her about context and that Jesus is talking about the Jews in the scripture she quoted. What is the best way to refute protestants on this matter?

Thanks

I think that since you have refuted her adequately…the only way she could hit you back…is with a low blow.

Those are not robes. There is a purpose and meaning for them…catholicdoors.com/courses/roman.htm

. THE ALB

The alb is a long, white linen liturgical vestment with tapered sleeves. It is a garment (or robe) that is worn by the priest during the Holy Mass. It symbolizes the innocence and purity that should adorn the soul of the priest who ascends the altar. While it is white in the Western Church, it can be of any color in the Eastern Church.

1. THE CHASUBLE
   The chasuble is the vestment that is put on over all the others during Liturgical services. Originally this was a very full garment, shaped like a bell and reaching almost to the feet all the way round. During a bad artistic period, the 18th and 19th century especially, the Chasuble suffered much from a process of shortening a stiffening. Today there is a return to the historical and beautiful, ample, nicely draping Chasubles. The Chasuble symbolizes the virtue of charity, and the yoke of unselfish service for the Lord, which the priest assumes at ordination.
2. THE CINCTURE
   The cincture is the cord used as a belt to gird the Alb. It symbolizes the virtues of chastity and continence (meaning “the exercise of self constraint in sexual matters”) required of the priest. It comes in many colors.
3. THE EPISCOPAL RING
   The Pope’s ring, known as the Fisherman’s Ring, is used as the personal and unique seal of that reigning Pontiff. It is destroyed when he dies. Cardinals make use of the cardinalatial ring bestowed upon them at consistory, and bishops use the episcopal ring bestowed upon them at their consecration. It should be noted that the Pope is the Bishop of Rome. Pontifical doctors make use of a doctoral ring at academic functions when they would use the doctoral biretta. Priests, both diocesan and order, may use the ring of profession during liturgical events. The ring is a gift of the Pope to each new bishop.
4. THE STOLE

Roman magistrates wore a long scarf when engaged in their official duties, just as our judges wear a court gown. Whenever a priest celebrates Mass or administers the Sacraments, he wears the stole as a sign that he is occupied with an official priestly duty. When placing the stole about his neck, in vesting for Mass, the priest begs God to give him on the last day the ‘garment of immortality’ that was forfeited by our sinful first parents

Prayers are said when before putting them on…angelqueen.org/mass/vestments.shtml

Besides…it was Judas who first asked such question…John 12…
4 Then one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, he that was about to betray him, said:

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein.
7 Jesus therefore said: Let her alone, that she may keep it against the day of my burial.

 

[SonCatcher]

My comment about the opulence of the church, also, comes from Mark. Mark 12:38-40: “As he taught, Jesus said, ’ Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for show make lengthly prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.” The ring on the Pope’s hand that others kiss? The expensive robes and opulence? If you remember, Jesus also said in several verses that if one wants to be first, he must be last and that those that are pushing to be first will be last in the kingdom. He did not come to be served, but to serve, and that is the role of any one wanting to serve Him.

Priests don’t “walk around” in their vestments. When Mass is over, most can’t get out of them fast enough. A very large portion of priests won’t even be seen wearing the Roman Collar, which is rather the minimum to be identified as a priest.

The prayers aren’t for show, either. At the Mass, they are part of the Church’s common worship. The Liturgy of the Hours is normally said in private (so it can’t be for show).

One of the titles of the Pope is “Servant of the servants of God.”

 

[tarboy]

Nigel,
I would try to take charge of the discussion. She is going to win if she gets to select her scripture and use selected photos of the pope in full uniform.

Focus the discussion on your local church, how much your preist is paid and how hard he works. Discuss what he wears when walkihng about town, and what kinf of car he drives. Your local priest must fit the scripture if she is right.

Regarding the Pope, he does wear a uniform that is centuries old and not very pracitcal or fashionable.

 

[Nigel7]

Thanks everyone

 

[PJM]

=Nigel7;9287519]I could use your help on this.

She is a nice woman, an old friend, was raised Catholic, but now attends a non-denominational community church. We’ve discussed several topics and I’ve always pointed her to scripture which supports Catholic doctrine. Every time I prove a point though then she comes back with something else. Here’s the latest…
She’s been hung up lately about the robes which the priests of the Catholic church wear, and now she has sent me this message including this scripture which she believes points to hypocrisy on the part of the Catholic church. (Mark 12)

Her message…

I know that in this scripture Jesus is talking about the Jews, but any advice/scripture/support that you could share with me which could assist in refuting her on this matter and showing her that it is not wrong for the Catholic Church to adorn its priests in robes would be helpful.
I’ve got her other questions covered, but could use some help with this, other than just telling her about context and that Jesus is talking about the Jews in the scripture she quoted. What is the best way to refute protestants on this matter?

Thanks

***Because the Mass is a “re-presentation” of the actual death of Christ, and REALLY makes Him [God] Present in our midst; we Catholics, much more than any Protestant faith incur a GRAVE Moral Obligation to Worship God with ALL of the Glory and Glorious things we can afford.

God deserves ALWAYS our Best; the BEST we can do; the Best we can Offer.***

WHY? Because God Himself Commands and Expects nothing less

Exod.25: 1-9
“The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the people of Israel, that they take for me an offering; from every man whose heart makes him willing you shall receive the offering for me. And this is the offering which you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze, blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen, goats’ hair, tanned rams’ skins, goatskins, acacia wood, oil for the lamps, spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense, onyx stones, and stones for setting, for the ephod and for the breastpiece.
And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst. According to all that I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.

Exod.25: And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it, and you shall make upon it a molding of gold round about. Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. You shall overlay it with pure gold, and make a molding of gold around it. And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour libations; of pure gold you shall make them. "And you shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The base and the shaft of the lampstand shall be made of hammered work; its cups, its capitals, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it; Their capitals and their branches shall be of one piece with it, the whole of it one piece of hammered work of pure gold. Its snuffers and their trays **shall be of pure gold. **Of a talent of pure gold shall it be made, with all these utensils. Exod.28 and two chains of pure gold, twisted like cords; and you shall attach the corded chains to the settings. And you shall make for the breastpiece twisted chains like cords, of pure gold; "And you shall make a plate of pure gold, and engrave on it, like the engraving of a signet, `Holy to the LORD.’

READ the entire story chapters 25-30

God Bless,
pat/PJM

WHY? Because God Himself COMMANDS IT!