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Paris_Blues
Guest
I’ve heard Protestants and even Catholics say that nothing can happen in this world without God’s permission or something. So if that’s the case, than that must mean that the darn reformation was acceptable, eh?
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VociMike
Guest
What God allows and what He desires are two different things.
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ScottH
Guest
I could go Calvinistic on this one, but I’ll refrain. 
We don’t know the will of God. Though a non-Catholic, I think it could have been handled much better by both parties involved.
We don’t know the will of God. Though a non-Catholic, I think it could have been handled much better by both parties involved.
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Mickey
Guest
Don’t do it!!! The predestination/free-will debate can send one to the funny farm. :bigyikes:I could go Calvinistic on this one, but I’ll refrain.
Welcome back Scott.
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kmager
Guest
NO THE REFORMATION WAS WRONG AND EVIL IT SPLIT CHRIST’S CHURCH–GOD PERMITS EVIL, BUT DOESNT WILL IT—YOU NEED A HEAVY DOSE OF AUGUSTINE AND AQUINA MY FREIND–ALSO FATHER WILLIAM MOST’S BOOK IS VERY GOOD–“CATHOLIC APOLOGETICS TODAY”
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Liberian
Guest
Paris Blues:
As someone has already answered, what God allows and what He desires are two different things. By the logic of “nothing can happen without God’s permission,” the evils of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia would also be acceptable. (Note to everybody: I am NOT comparing Protestants to Nazis or Stalinists; I am citing extreme examples in an attempt to show the argument false.) There is a lot that has happened in the world that is unacceptable, and some that is downright intolerable.
Paris Blues,I’ve heard Protestants and even Catholics say that nothing can happen in this world without God’s permission or something. So if that’s the case, than that must mean that the darn reformation was acceptable, eh?
As someone has already answered, what God allows and what He desires are two different things. By the logic of “nothing can happen without God’s permission,” the evils of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia would also be acceptable. (Note to everybody: I am NOT comparing Protestants to Nazis or Stalinists; I am citing extreme examples in an attempt to show the argument false.) There is a lot that has happened in the world that is unacceptable, and some that is downright intolerable.
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thessalonian
Guest
Paris Blues:
Augustine points to this in City of God using rather unpolitcally correct language he says the heretics are allowed in the world and by their errors they motivate us and the Church to a deeper understanding of the truth. The darkness makes the light shine brighter. One cannot see the stars except in the darkness of night. You get the picture.
Blessings
That logic says that WW II and the atrocities committed were okay. No, rather it shows God’s great love for man by allowing them to committ the greatest offenses against him if they so choose by their own wills. He loved Adolph Hitler so much that he did not force him to submit to his own will for him and so choose the path of destruction. But in allowing the destuction that one man choose he used it for the sanctification of others. So no, sin is not okay, error is not okay, but God uses it to the good. That is why in the end he wins.I’ve heard Protestants and even Catholics say that nothing can happen in this world without God’s permission or something. So if that’s the case, than that must mean that the darn reformation was acceptable, eh?
Augustine points to this in City of God using rather unpolitcally correct language he says the heretics are allowed in the world and by their errors they motivate us and the Church to a deeper understanding of the truth. The darkness makes the light shine brighter. One cannot see the stars except in the darkness of night. You get the picture.
Blessings
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Dr.Colossus
Guest
God allowed Man’s fall from grace. Do you think He wanted that to happen, or thought it was okay? I doubt many Protestants would think so either.
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Scalia
Guest
This is really a classic protestant ploy/fallacy.
Here’s an example from scripture which controverts the fallacy. The Pharisees confront Jesus on the issue of divorce regarding the proper grounds and problems concerning OT interpretations. Jesus tells them there is NO divorce. The Pharisees respond by mocking Jesus and state, somthing to the effect…of course there is divorce, Moses prescribed it!!! It’s in the Deutero texts!!! Not only did divorce exist at the time of Christ (therefore, using protestant reasoning it MUST be allowed/condoned/desired by God) BUT there is scriptural support for it!!!
How does Jesus respond to this reasonsing that (1.) it exists; therfore, it must be of God and (2.) There is even scriptural support for it? Jesus responds by saying in essence, Divorce was allowed Moses; NOT God. Moses did this because of YOUR HARD HEARTS. The argument that it exists and therefore MUST be of God is overturned by Christ. Jesus says this {divorce thing} isn’t of God but from man (Moses) and the FACT that it exists stems from your wicked hearts!! Finally, He says that “No man can seperate what God has joined” irrespective of anything Moses might have said.
God lets Christians divide into thousands and thousands of denominations. We are so divided now that many families can’t even celebrate Christmas and Easter together. This division, like divorce, is not the will of God.
Here’s an example from scripture which controverts the fallacy. The Pharisees confront Jesus on the issue of divorce regarding the proper grounds and problems concerning OT interpretations. Jesus tells them there is NO divorce. The Pharisees respond by mocking Jesus and state, somthing to the effect…of course there is divorce, Moses prescribed it!!! It’s in the Deutero texts!!! Not only did divorce exist at the time of Christ (therefore, using protestant reasoning it MUST be allowed/condoned/desired by God) BUT there is scriptural support for it!!!
How does Jesus respond to this reasonsing that (1.) it exists; therfore, it must be of God and (2.) There is even scriptural support for it? Jesus responds by saying in essence, Divorce was allowed Moses; NOT God. Moses did this because of YOUR HARD HEARTS. The argument that it exists and therefore MUST be of God is overturned by Christ. Jesus says this {divorce thing} isn’t of God but from man (Moses) and the FACT that it exists stems from your wicked hearts!! Finally, He says that “No man can seperate what God has joined” irrespective of anything Moses might have said.
God lets Christians divide into thousands and thousands of denominations. We are so divided now that many families can’t even celebrate Christmas and Easter together. This division, like divorce, is not the will of God.
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martino
Guest
Nothing happens in the universe without God willing and allowing it. This statement must be taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin. ‘Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives’ is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, ‘and God intervenes everywhere.’
Perhaps you will say that while this is true of certain necessary effects, like sickness, death, cold and heat, and other accidents due to natural causes which have no liberty of action, the same cannot be said in the case of things that result from the free will of man. For if, you will object, someone slanders, robs, strikes, or persecutes me, how can I attribute his conduct to the will of God who, far from wishing me to be treated in such a manner, expressly forbids it? So the blame , you will conclude, can only be laid on the will of man, on his ignorance or malice. This is the defense behind which we try to shelter from God and excuse our lack of courage and submission.
It is quite useless for us to try and take advantage of this way of reasoning as an excuse for not surrendering to Providence. God Himself refuted it and we must believe on His word that in events of this kind as in all others, nothing occurs except by His order and permission.
Fr. Jean Baptiste Saint-Jure, S.J.
Perhaps you will say that while this is true of certain necessary effects, like sickness, death, cold and heat, and other accidents due to natural causes which have no liberty of action, the same cannot be said in the case of things that result from the free will of man. For if, you will object, someone slanders, robs, strikes, or persecutes me, how can I attribute his conduct to the will of God who, far from wishing me to be treated in such a manner, expressly forbids it? So the blame , you will conclude, can only be laid on the will of man, on his ignorance or malice. This is the defense behind which we try to shelter from God and excuse our lack of courage and submission.
It is quite useless for us to try and take advantage of this way of reasoning as an excuse for not surrendering to Providence. God Himself refuted it and we must believe on His word that in events of this kind as in all others, nothing occurs except by His order and permission.
Fr. Jean Baptiste Saint-Jure, S.J.
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surfinpure
Guest
Be careful not to get into “predestination” arguments with Protestants – particularly Calvinists – unless you know exactly what you’re doing. I stay away from them altogether, because I don’t need the headache! :banghead:
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Paris_Blues
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surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
Oh no, it’s not that I’m arguing with anyone! It was just a thought that came to my mind. But I just don’t understand why “new churches” had to grow and all that!
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