Protestants: Are You Okay With Division?

[cmodrmac]

I actually am fine with division -my Church has the 3 legged stool of scripture-tradition and reason-reasonable people disagree-we pray for Unity do we not- but in reality it will not happen-I believe that all believers in Christ are working towards the same goal-

at some point the roman catholic Church must come to the conclusion that some of its doctrines are an impediment to Unity as are some of the Protestant doctrines

I suggest that the OP read “A ray of darkness” by Rowan Williams former Archbishop of Canterbury-the sermon “Different Christs” may be interesting

 

[JonNC]

The Roman canon is not the sole, “valid” canon of Christianity. Even within Catholicism, the various particular Churches have differing bibles. Early Christians wrote, edited, and compiled the various books. Different Churches have recognized different lists of books within their published sacred canons. It’s not exactly the “smoking gun” for the Roman Catholic organization as supreme head of Christianity.

I’m not sure how this kind of “gotcha” questioning angle furthers the cause of the RC church. Personally, I feel it weakens it, because it tries to take messy, muddy facts and sanitize them to fit a clean, simple narrative…usually at the expense of the Eastern churches, both Catholic and otherwise. Christians “are” where they are because of their faith. I don’t think anyone would say that division, of itself, is a “good”. However, the underlying reasons for division are complex…and the resulting church memberships are likewise complex, multifaceted, and personal decisions. The posters in other threads (eg, “Why Are You Not Catholic”, a very active thread at the moment) eloquently offer varied and personal responses to this matter.

One of the best posts I’ve seen here in a long time.

Thanks, Knit.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

My dear friends in Christ,

I ask this not from animosity or hatred, but with a true desire of knowing the true reasons for the continual Protestant separation from the God’s Holy Catholic Church. Please answer with dignity and respect towards me and everyone.

Protestants, do you really think it is okay that there is so much separation within the Christian faith? Do you really think that it is okay that there are thousands of Protestant denominations, some that are split off for the smallest things? Do you really think that it is okay for Protestants to be split off from the Catholic Church, which was the ONLY Christian Church from the time of Jesus until the 1500s and the heresies of a few individuals, who changed doctrine and started their own denominations?

And do you really think that it is okay that there is such division among Christians for a refusal to believe in the Truth, even when it is presented right to certain people and even with the Prayer of Jesus from the Gospel According to Saint John: “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me" (John 17: 20-21, emphasis mine).

Please answer me honestly, I ask you all humbly in Christ,

Ryan

May God bless you all abundantly and forever!

No, Ryan. I do not believe it is okay for His Church to be separated. I do not believe it is right that many of us confess the ancient creed wherein we state that we, “… believe in One holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” We share the belief that there is one Holy church that will last forever, and yet we cannot share His body and blood at the same altar, or receive Absolution from each other’s priests.

It is a violation of Christs’s call. It limits our ability to fulfill His great commission, and wounds His message to our fallen and broken world.

And each and every one of us, Lutheran and Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox, Reformed and Baptist, should be on our knees weekly begging forgiveness.

Jon

 

[cmodrmac]

anything would be more rational that the fire and eternal torment concept of Hell-

why would a loving Divinity sentence people to eternal torment is such an ancient and sadistic manner -its all about control is it not-works better on children or those “who are born again” = remains children

from one of our Bishops:

"To this day that was perhaps the most hateful thing that anybody had ever said to me, that if I did not embrace THEIR specific religious beliefs I would be punished for all eternity.

Essentially for me, once you have said something that hateful and unnecessarily vicious you can no longer expect me to listen to ANYTHING else you may have to say."

 

[somechristian]

My dear friends in Christ,

I ask this not from animosity or hatred, but with a true desire of knowing the true reasons for the continual Protestant separation from the God’s Holy Catholic Church. Please answer with dignity and respect towards me and everyone.

Protestants, do you really think it is okay that there is so much separation within the Christian faith? Do you really think that it is okay that there are thousands of Protestant denominations, some that are split off for the smallest things? Do you really think that it is okay for Protestants to be split off from the Catholic Church, which was the ONLY Christian Church from the time of Jesus until the 1500s and the heresies of a few individuals, who changed doctrine and started their own denominations?

And do you really think that it is okay that there is such division among Christians for a refusal to believe in the Truth, even when it is presented right to certain people and even with the Prayer of Jesus from the Gospel According to Saint John: “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me" (John 17: 20-21, emphasis mine).

Please answer me honestly, I ask you all humbly in Christ,

Ryan

May God bless you all abundantly and forever!

Technically your assertion that there was only one “human institution” that we call Christian Church" until the 1500s is not accurate. The Coptic Church was created in the V-th century en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_Church_of_Alexandria while the Eastern Orthodox Church was created in the XI-th. So the first thing that I am doing is to challenge the Catholic mantra that there were no divisions among Christians before Martin Luther came into picture. In fact, this fellow en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hus had similar criticisms to make about the Roman Catholic Church when it came to the practice of granting indulgences but he didn’t succeed in reforming its practices. So the fact that Martin Luther was successful where others failed is to me a sign that the Holy Spirit did indeed guide his work.

A study of Early Christianity similarly challenges the notion of “one church” prior to the West/East schism. The Roman Catholic Church was established in the aftermath of the Edict of Milan as a collection of independent churches. To this day, the Roman Catholic Church reflects this (there are 23 of them inside it, all in communion with Rome but they are administratively independent churches that could decide at any time to disassociate themselves from the Latin Church).

Historically, even the head of the church of Rome immediately after the Edict of the Milan was not understood to have supremacy over the other churches,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_the_Bishop_of_Rome#After_the_Edict_of_Milan

The power of the Bishop of Rome increased as the power of the Emperors gradually diminished and the imperial authorities tried to bolster their waning power with religious support. A joint edict of Byzantine Emperor Theodosius II and Roman Emperor Valentinian III proclaimed the bishop of Rome as the “rector of the whole Church”.[59][e] In 545, Byzantine Emperor Justinian I promulgated a similar civil Byzantine law, in Novellae Constitutiones novel 131, which codified that the archbishop of Constantinople “occupies the place next after the holy apostolic seat of ancient Rome”.[60]

So in conclusion, I wish there was no division, but the statement that Luther brought division to the Christian Church where previously there was none is not accurate. Christians have been divided since day one (read Galatians 2 for an early instance of division between Paul and Peter). The churches born of the Reformation have brought the gospel to 800 million people, almost as many people as there are members of the Roman Catholic Church. So I would say that it would be better to have less division, but at least we have people who have known Christ because of Protestant Christianity. In addition, evangelical Christians have more zeal than their Catholic counterparts.

 

[Contarini]

God determined what would be scripture since he created them, and the united church recognized them.

But of course, as we’ve established, there was no united Church

Edwin

 

[steve_b]

Oh. I don’t believe that at all. In fact I think it’s demonstrably false. If the church was united at the time of Hippo and Carthage, under the auspices of Rome, then all communions EO, and OO, and Church or the East would all have the same canon. They don’t, either the church wasn’t united, or they didn’t care as much about what Rome was declaring as Catholic Answers would have me believe.

For clarification, there was no EO and OO at the time. There was the Catholic Church and we see that from the beginning, in writing, from primary documents #34 . Be sure and open all the internal links

taking one internal link from that link, since the canon of scripture came up, read the following from the Muratorian canon. earlychristianwritings.co…uratoria n.html . The date written was ~180 a.d. Note the references to the Catholic Church in the document. The NT canon depends on the Catholic Church because all the writers of the NT scriptures were Catholic writing to the Catholic Church.
S:

Because that whole argument is based on a** false premise** that is historically flawed. Also, I have explained why I am not Catholic in another thread. Also, I believe Lutheranism IS the Catholic Church in a sense as it is a valid continuation of the Western Church.

That last statement is an example of a false premise and flawed history. Lutherans are Protestant NOT Catholic. They are NOT the Catholic Church. There’s no “continuation” theory. Nor is there a “branch” theory dreampt up by the Anglicans.